Turkey....the Contradictions

Jul 2012
1,942
Bahrain
#1
A country of great history, with over 600 years of it as an Islamic Empire, such history form the major things of what a Turk or any Muslim can be proud of.....The Empire falls and then emerges a Republic highly driven for Westernization....So highly driven that it curtails its links with the biggest source of their pride: The Ottoman Empire or ISLAM.

The Contradiction is not just in Turkey, its also felt in the Arab world....Its a question of whether Secularism should overrun Islam...

In Turkey, there are thoughts that Islam is the source of Backwardness and any links to it or to the Islamic world should be abolished.

Other thoughts are that involvement with Islam or the Islamic world is a natural thing....being a Muslim country and that elements of religion has to be at least respected.
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My Opinion is that some middle ground can be found.....

Most importantly, Islam cannot be accused of Backwardness whatsoever AND 'Modernization' is not necessarily 'Westernization'....the concepts of individual development, society concerns, ethics, behavior are all addressed and highly encouraged in Islam.

My believe is, that its the behavior and mentalities of people that drives a nation toward Modernization.....Back in time in the glory days of Islamic dynasties, the people are more active, have more clarity and motivation in what they do, the Islamic world produced many scientists and scholars, and in the most showed tolerance whereby different people coexisted....

There are common areas between Secularism and Islam that can be exploited. The application of the Islam itself varies and can be tolerated to suit societal differences...
 
Jul 2009
12,418
Anatolia
#2
These thought that Islam is source of backwardness is not common and they are rare.
Source of these thought is result of success of western civilization in recent history.

Few of these people even specualte history that If Turks were Christian we would have been richer.

Being a muslim in a muslim country where you can hardly find any room to pray in a mosque, cant be seen as backwardness. I prayed in the garden of the mosque many time on my "seccade" because the mosque was full inside.

But in some places, in many office ladies who covers their head arent employed, because they dont look nice to customers. It is more of seeing some islamic codes as backward than of seeing Islam as backward.

Many ladies dont see covering head as Islamic necesity.

Because secularism, Islam as a religion in her roots provide religious freedom and offer no Churchlike institution which is shirk, is compatible with secularism and democracy. In absent of Church institution there is no sense in discussing seperation of state and church.

When It come to Islam in politic areana, It make some Turk fear of teocratic tyrany seeing Iran and Saudi Arabia as bacward example. In fact modern Iran teocracy isnt product of Iranian of Omar Khayyam. It cant be comparable with sharia of Ottoman empire.

Kemalism in Turkey empowered his position spreading fear that Turkey might be country like Iran, Saudi Arabia.
 
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Jan 2012
193
Land of 10,000 lakes
#3
As long as Islam treats women as they do they will be backwards and against the tide of the modern world. You can't progress when 14 year girls are shot in the head for going to school. Europe began to progress when it freed it self from the yoke of dogma and fanaticism. What Turkey has gained has been exactly because they made a decision to live in the modern world and not in the 12th century.
 
Oct 2011
23,472
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#4
Well Efendi, good points.

My opinion is that it was just about confrontation with the competitors [Western democracies].

Among the "winning factors" of these democracies there was secularism, that is to say the lay structure of the state.

This doesn't mean to cut the links with the traditions [Western democracies are still Christian societies in great part], but it means that the state has to be lay. The positive consequences of this general policy are visible. Just to mention in US during WW II scientists from any religious / social / cultural ... background cooperated to win the war and to grant the future of the "land of the freedom" [United States].
 
Jul 2012
1,942
Bahrain
#5
As long as Islam treats women as they do they will be backwards and against the tide of the modern world. You can't progress when 14 year girls are shot in the head for going to school. Europe began to progress when it freed it self from the yoke of dogma and fanaticism. What Turkey has gained has been exactly because they made a decision to live in the modern world and not in the 12th century.
Islam doesn't tell anyone to do such thing ! :).....

By this we're actually condemning a 'Behavior' by certain people, and although some bahviors are influenced by a wrong interpretation or understanding of religion that shouldn't lead us to generalize that on Islam itself or condemn it...
 
Jun 2012
2,248
Constantinople
#6
A country of great history, with over 600 years of it as an Islamic Empire, such history form the major things of what a Turk or any Muslim can be proud of.....The Empire falls and then emerges a Republic highly driven for Westernization....So highly driven that it curtails its links with the biggest source of their pride: The Ottoman Empire or ISLAM.

The Contradiction is not just in Turkey, its also felt in the Arab world....Its a question of whether Secularism should overrun Islam...

In Turkey, there are thoughts that Islam is the source of Backwardness and any links to it or to the Islamic world should be abolished.

Other thoughts are that involvement with Islam or the Islamic world is a natural thing....being a Muslim country and that elements of religion has to be at least respected.
.
.
.
My Opinion is that some middle ground can be found.....

Most importantly, Islam cannot be accused of Backwardness whatsoever AND 'Modernization' is not necessarily 'Westernization'....the concepts of individual development, society concerns, ethics, behavior are all addressed and highly encouraged in Islam.

My believe is, that its the behavior and mentalities of people that drives a nation toward Modernization.....Back in time in the glory days of Islamic dynasties, the people are more active, have more clarity and motivation in what they do, the Islamic world produced many scientists and scholars, and in the most showed tolerance whereby different people coexisted....

There are common areas between Secularism and Islam that can be exploited. The application of the Islam itself varies and can be tolerated to suit societal differences...
Islam in particular is not the source of backwardness, religion is. But since the other dominant religion in our part of the world is Christianity and Christianity thankfully have an enlightment age, the majority of the source of backwardness is Islam now.

And why do you characterise Ottoman Empire as an Islam Empire? Do you think British Empire is a Christian Empire?

These thought that Islam is source of backwardness is not common and they are rare.
Source of these thought is result of success of western civilization in recent history.

Few of these people even specualte history that If Turks were Christian we would have been richer.

Being a muslim in a muslim country where you can hardly find any room to pray in a mosque, cant be seen as backwardness. I prayed in the garden of the mosque many time on my "seccade" because the mosque was full inside.

But in some places, in many office ladies who covers their head arent employed, because they dont look nice to customers. It is more of seeing some islamic codes as backward than of seeing Islam as backward.

Many ladies dont see covering head as Islamic necesity.

Because secularism, Islam as a religion in her roots provide religious freedom and offer no Churchlike institution which is shirk, is compatible with secularism and democracy. In absent of Church institution there is no sense in discussing seperation of state and church.

When It come to Islam in politic areana, It make some Turk fear of teocratic tyrany seeing Iran and Saudi Arabia as bacward example. In fact modern Iran teocracy isnt product of Iranian of Omar Khayyam. It cant be comparable with sharia of Ottoman empire.

Kemalism in Turkey empowered his position spreading fear that Turkey might be country like Iran, Saudi Arabia.
Now first of all again I see a lot naivity in this post. First of all it is clear as day that the current government is in a conflict with the established values of the Republic such as secularity and even nationalism and republicanism.

The theocracy does not have to mean it will be so obvious or open as in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I know that you also know the current trend in Turkey and how the people are becoming more religious everyday, the prohibition of alcohol in disguise of "banning tables from streets" or banning school uniforms to make sure nobody will wear even t-shirts but allowing turban. These are all sneaky and petty attempts to make the society more indoctrined with stinking Islamic ideologies and to make the country's government more theocratic. It doesn't really have to say "Islamic Republic of Turkey" to understand where this country is going.

Also how many libraries or schools are there in Turkey and how many mosques? There are like a mosque in every little neighbourhood and you can hear more than five Ezans at the same time. You yourself say there are no churchlike institutions in Islam so why do you need a mosque? Can't you pray at home if your local mosque is so crowded, which I hardly believe. Perhaps in Bayrams or some Fridays. I don't think it is wise to spend money on temples in the 21th century while we need many other public buildings like hospitals or libraries.

Islam doesn't tell anyone to do such thing ! :).....

By this we're actually condemning a 'Behavior' by certain people, and although some bahviors are influenced by a wrong interpretation or understanding of religion that shouldn't lead us to generalize that on Islam itself or condemn it...
It doesn't mean anything actually that Islam says or not. It is the actions of people who claim to be muslims in question here. Islam can say all it wants to say but this is the reality. It is an often ridiculed statement in Turkey, to say "Oh but they are not real muslims" usually said to Arabs or Iranians when people talk about their fundementalism.
 
Aug 2009
4,904
Londinium
#7
Islam in particular is not the source of backwardness, religion is. But since the other dominant religion in our part of the world is Christianity and Christianity thankfully have an enlightment age, the majority of the source of backwardness is Islam now.
Exactly, its religion which is (by its very nature) backward, as most of them are at least 1000 years old. How can someone expect a way of life from 1000 years ago to still be relevant today, without applying the teachings of the past to a modern context?

There are some lessons which can be applied, showing respect to parents and forgiveness (for instance) but then there are many other practices and viewpoints which have no place in the more modern societies, where these centuries old customs or laws are still practiced you will find a backward society.
 
Jul 2012
1,942
Bahrain
#8
Islam in particular is not the source of backwardness, religion is. But since the other dominant religion in our part of the world is Christianity and Christianity thankfully have an enlightment age, the majority of the source of backwardness is Islam now.

And why do you characterise Ottoman Empire as an Islam Empire? Do you think British Empire is a Christian Empire?



Now first of all again I see a lot naivity in this post. First of all it is clear as day that the current government is in a conflict with the established values of the Republic such as secularity and even nationalism and republicanism.

The theocracy does not have to mean it will be so obvious or open as in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I know that you also know the current trend in Turkey and how the people are becoming more religious everyday, the prohibition of alcohol in disguise of "banning tables from streets" or banning school uniforms to make sure nobody will wear even t-shirts but allowing turban. These are all sneaky and petty attempts to make the society more indoctrined with stinking Islamic ideologies and to make the country's government more theocratic. It doesn't really have to say "Islamic Republic of Turkey" to understand where this country is going.

Also how many libraries or schools are there in Turkey and how many mosques? There are like a mosque in every little neighbourhood and you can hear more than five Ezans at the same time. You yourself say there are no churchlike institutions in Islam so why do you need a mosque? Can't you pray at home if your local mosque is so crowded, which I hardly believe. Perhaps in Bayrams or some Fridays. I don't think it is wise to spend money on temples in the 21th century while we need many other public buildings like hospitals or libraries.



It doesn't mean anything actually that Islam says or not. It is the actions of people who claim to be muslims in question here. Islam can say all it wants to say but this is the reality. It is an often ridiculed statement in Turkey, to say "Oh but they are not real muslims" usually said to Arabs or Iranians when people talk about their fundementalism.
- I think you'll have to draw a line between Muslims behavior and Islam itself in the context of backwardness.

- If the Ottoman Empire was not an Islamic one, then what is it in your opinion?....The British Empire is not a good approximation in terms of religion because they didn't promote Christianity nor did they had it as base for administration.

- Mosques are built to cater for neighbourhoods needs....You'd probably know that a prayer in a mosque is valued more in Islam than a prayer at home....So these are to cater for the daily needs. A person cannot be expected to walk distances for large mosques for daily prayers.

And, building of mosques has nothing to do with hindering educational institutions !! :lol: No need to get too sensitive about it.....In Bahrain (and most Arab states) the small mosques are mostly built by individuals as gifts or donations and doesn't form a significant part of the Government's budgets.
 
Jun 2012
2,248
Constantinople
#9
- I think you'll have to draw a line between Muslims behavior and Islam itself in the context of backwardness.

- If the Ottoman Empire was not an Islamic one, then what is it in your opinion?....The British Empire is not a good approximation in terms of religion because they didn't promote Christianity nor did they had it as base for administration.

- Mosques are built to cater for neighbourhoods needs....You'd probably know that a prayer in a mosque is valued more in Islam than a prayer at home....So these are to cater for the daily needs. A person cannot be expected to walk distances for large mosques for daily prayers.

And, building of mosques has nothing to do with hindering educational institutions !! :lol: No need to get too sensitive about it.....In Bahrain (and most Arab states) the small mosques are mostly built by individuals as gifts or donations and doesn't form a significant part of the Government's budgets.
- There is no need to draw a line. It doesn't matter what Islam says if muslims act as the way they do.

- It was an empire that is all. Like Austria-Hungary. Ne need or basis to add religious titles to it.

- Well Turkey is not Bahrain or an Arab state and there are no need for any mosques in Turkey. Even there still won't be any if you don't build a single mosque for 50 years.
 
Jul 2012
1,942
Bahrain
#10
Exactly, its religion which is (by its very nature) backward, as most of them are at least 1000 years old. How can someone expect a way of life from 1000 years ago to still be relevant today, without applying the teachings of the past to a modern context?

There are some lessons which can be applied, showing respect to parents and forgiveness (for instance) but then there are many other practices and viewpoints which have no place in the more modern societies, where these centuries old customs or laws are still practiced you will find a backward society.
I don't get it !! :weird: you say Islam isn't backward but religion is !! Can you define your understanding dude...

Islam's approach opens the door for interpretation and application according to suitability....Its a way of life that can be integrated to any age given the "right interpretation"....If agree to your saying that something over 1,400 years old is irrelevant today, then this would be equivalent to saying: we should've stopped being Muslims in the 20th century !!
 

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