Ukrainian Military on Full Alert for Possible War With Russia

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,990
And regardless of their behavior they still would enjoy full sovereign immunity - which means that any Russian attempt to ram, shoot or board them is immediately a violation of international law.
You forget to add that they "enjoy full sovereign immunity" only "at high seas" which was not the case with these vessels
 

Vaeltaja

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
3,682
You forget to add that they "enjoy full sovereign immunity" only "at high seas" which was not the case with these vessels
Within the context of this discussion your statement is false. If you check the document text of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea for the article 32 - which handles the immunities of the foreign warships (or similar vessels) in the territorial sea during an innocent passage (same, or in fact a tad more extensive rights apply to transit passage) the text reads as:
UNCLOS Article 32 said:
Immunities of warships and other government ships operated for non-commercial purposes

With such exceptions as are contained in subsection A and in articles 30 and 31, nothing in this Convention affects the immunities of warships and other government ships operated for non-commercial purposes
You can read through the articles of subsection A (17 .. 26) and the articles 30 and 31 and you will see that there is nothing in there which would allow engaging foreign warships even in innocent passage - and as said before the rights of the transit passage are somewhat more extensive. In fact the very article 30 referenced in above makes it clear what is the furthest extent that come be done.
UNCLOS Article 30 said:
Non-compliance by warships with the laws and regulations of the coastal State

If any warship does not comply with the laws and regulations of the coastal State concerning passage through the territorial sea and disregards any request for compliance therewith which is made to it, the coastal State may require it to leave the territorial sea immediately.
However since we are actually handling a transit passage instead of innocent passage the following also apply:
UNCLOS Article 44 said:
Duties of States bordering straits

States bordering straits shall not hamper transit passage and shall give appropriate publicity to any danger to navigation or overflight within or over the strait of which they have knowledge. There shall be no suspension of transit passage.
UNCLOS Article 45 said:
Innocent passage

1. The regime of innocent passage, in accordance with Part II, section 3, shall apply in straits used for international navigation:
(a) excluded from the application of the regime of transit passage under article 38, paragraph 1; or
(b) between a part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and the territorial sea of a foreign State.
2. There shall be no suspension of innocent passage through such straits
So the sovereign immunity would still apply. The catch is that per definition no sovereignty can trump sovereignty of another.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,077
So the sovereign immunity would still apply. The catch is that per definition no sovereignty can trump sovereignty of another.
Quite. As in so many cases of conflict a big part of the issue here it "too much sovereignty". Russia and Ukraine are on a collision course precisely over this.

At some point the semantics of the conflict crosses a border of de facto "state of war". So far both sides shie away from going that far. But in action there's already enough to warrant all kinds of dangerous semantic shifts over this.

And frankly ALL the actions infracting on the sovreignity of the other party so far have been carried out by Russia. It only makes sense if Ukraine is clearly seen to NOT have the same sovereign rights as Russia. Even a lot the Russian actions so far don't quite make sense unless assuming that.
 
Aug 2010
15,664
Welsh Marches
"And frankly ALL the actions infracting on the sovreignity of the other party so far have been carried out by Russia. It only makes sense if Ukraine is clearly seen to NOT have the same sovereign rights as Russia. Even a lot the Russian actions so far don't quite make sense unless assuming that."

Very good point there; this all follows from the assumption that Russia as a 'great power' has special rights to interfere in its 'immediate area of influence', and that there is no equivalence in this regard between Russia and Ukraine (or Russia and Georgia etc.). This is often quite explicitly argued by right wing nationalists in the West who admire Putin's brand of nationalist power politcs.
 
Mar 2014
1,877
Lithuania
Complacently agree, Russia treats every weaker country as if it has no rights. That is most important reason why most of the countries that border Russia wants to be part of NATO. Simply making treaties with Russia is meaningless for them, because Russia would not honor those treaties.
 
Dec 2017
745
-------
Complacently agree, Russia treats every weaker country as if it has no rights. That is most important reason why most of the countries that border Russia wants to be part of NATO. Simply making treaties with Russia is meaningless for them, because Russia would not honor those treaties.
I will agree on this. I know about it more than most people. At the same time , situation about Soviet Union(Russia), even Lithuanian forest brothers will distance themselves from current Ukraine.
Such pathetic is the situation. These people have no dignity.
Pathetic.
 

Vaeltaja

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
3,682
Very good point there; this all follows from the assumption that Russia as a 'great power' has special rights to interfere in its 'immediate area of influence', and that there is no equivalence in this regard between Russia and Ukraine (or Russia and Georgia etc.).
This indeed has been the underlying issue that has kept causing issues. I have previously stated that it is kind of a situation where Russia wants to be treated as the country instead of a country - referencing this matter. And the neighboring countries do not welcome it - for most of them it is the sovereignty which really matters and Russian behavior doesn't help. Which leads to more or less deteriorating relations - but for some reason Russia doesn't seem to be realizing, or caring, that it is Russia's very own behavior which keeps driving that wedge ever deeper. Which means that those Russian fears have turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. The more Russia tries to impose its will on other countries to overcome its fears the worse situation gets.
This is often quite explicitly argued by right wing nationalists in the West who admire Putin's brand of nationalist power politcs.
Interesting point.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
32,499
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Yes well, Ukraine isn't even a real country. It is merely a rebellious breakaway province of the Russian Federation. Russia has every right to act as it sees fit on its sovereign territory.

It would be the equivalent of Corsica attempting to break away from France.
You trying to be funny, or deliberately provocative?

Either way - a word of warning. Neither is a wise course of action in the Chamber.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,094
Sydney