"Under God" and the Pledge of Allegiance

Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
I'm sorry to hear that.

A common attitude with some public public intellectuals , but , I think not by ones who are secure in their belief/ lack of belief.

Yeah, it works both ways;. I've run across a lot believers, who us the term 'atheist' in an accusatory way. Same thing. People who are secure in their beliefs don't need to prove anything to anyone. Just because a person asks a question doesn't mean one is under any obligation to answer.
One is never obligated to defend or prove one's beliefs (or lack of them) Unless of course you care about the opinion of the questioner.

It's quite different when it's a matter of professional reputation. At such times, I think the opponent needs to tread carefully.

There are certainly some public intellectuals (alive and dead) who I do not respect an do not support..

Offending sensibilities is one thing, common in discussions about deeply held convictions.We do not have the right NOT to be offended. However I think, it is despicable to set out to injure another over differences of convictions.
 
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Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,447
Dispargum
The separation of Church and state seems to be to prevent sectarian control of government as say by the Catholic Church or Evangelicals, Muslims, or Jews.
Actually, it works both ways. The separation of Church and state has been very beneficial to religion in America. Churches were forced to succeed on their own without artificial support from the state. Consequently, religion in America is vigorous, vibrant, and relevant in the daily lives of many Americans. In many European countries with established religions the Church became lazy and out of touch with many, perhaps most, people.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,872
Portugal
Not really. The version with "under God" was banned as a teacher led/school sanctioned activity but only in certain states, and the decision was later overturned by the Supreme Court.

FACT CHECK: Pledge of Allegiance Ruling

"A few points of clarification about this issue:

The decision applies only to the nine Western states under the Ninth Circuit court’s jurisdiction: Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.

The ruling does not make the Pledge of Allegiance “unconstitutional” or “illegal” per se; it holds that the current version of the Pledge of Allegiance (which includes the words “under God”) may not be recited in public schools as part of a teacher-led or school-sanctioned activity. Technically, schools could still lead recitations of the original version of the pledge (before the 1954 insertion of the words “under God”), and students could still choose to recite either version on their own."
From your link the comment that I read is pretty intense, with a petition:

“This is probably the most dangerous ruling of any Federal Court in American history because it is a declaration that America is no longer “one nation under God”. This court is saying that America does not need or want God. This ruling must be reversed immediately!”

I guess France is officially athiest from the French Revolution, although maybe it was Catholic again under the restored monarchies. That would not go over in the US. There are many different religions but atheism is a dirty word. It used to be like being a Communist or gay or something. It is OK to be not real religious, but not athiest.
That is odd, form a country that since its beginning proclaims theoretically religious freedom. We can consider that not believing in a God with the highest level of religious freedom.

Demonizing does not go in just one direction.
Agreed. There are religious people that proselytize and there are atheists that proselytize, and there are others that don’t. But, I don’t see much of a difference here.

In many European countries with established religions the Church became lazy and out of touch with many, perhaps most, people.
And that can be a good or a bad thing, depending on your religious perspective.
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
Actually, it works both ways. The separation of Church and state has been very beneficial to religion in America. Churches were forced to succeed on their own without artificial support from the state. Consequently, religion in America is vigorous, vibrant, and relevant in the daily lives of many Americans. In many European countries with established religions the Church became lazy and out of touch with many, perhaps most, people.
The "Great Awakening" religious revival and movement towards Baptist and Methodist religions occurred before the American Revolution and was a factor in it. It was partly a revolution against the Church of England.

I agree that the US is more religious than Europe partly because theere are different religions to choose from and they serve the needs of the people more.
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
The pledge was originally a Civil War loyalty test, but was used by school children beginning in the 1890s. I suspect it became widespread in the schools at the beginning of the Cold War, in the "McCarthy era", following relevation of Communist infiltration of the government, Hollywood, etc.