Unparalleled-The Catholic/Christian equal treatment of LGBT

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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,495
I disagree that the French revolution abolished Christianity. Napoleon himself was a Catholic and a believer in God, often citing the Bible as why he stood for equal rights. There is a difference between anti Clerical and anti Christian.
i would hesitate to say Napoleon was truly a believer. He saw the Church as a useful tool. He dictated a Catechism , that said the believers should be thank for God who gave them Napoloen, poretty much divine right. His bulletins weere read from the pulpit. I leader doe snot have to be a beleiver to use the power of the church for his own ends.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,495
Its interesting that in this time in history the Christian majority countries are most welcoming of LGBT, perhaps that will change in the future though and more of the non Christian countries can be more welcoming to LGBT. W/e is holding back countries like Japan, Uganda and Israel from allowing LGBT marriage is inexcusable, of course there will be reasons the intolerant Gov of these countries try and provide, but there is no legit excuse for that bigotry and it must be overcome.
But Christian churches and bodies are very prominent in campaign against LGBT rights. Here in Australia they reserve the right to sack any LGBT employees.
 
Feb 2019
472
Thrace
i would hesitate to say Napoleon was truly a believer. He saw the Church as a useful tool. He dictated a Catechism , that said the believers should be thank for God who gave them Napoloen, poretty much divine right. His bulletins weere read from the pulpit. I leader doe snot have to be a beleiver to use the power of the church for his own ends.
There are also several quotes attributed to him which call his faith in question:

“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

"Religions are all founded on miracles — on things we cannot understand, such as the Trinity. Jesus calls himself the Son of God, and yet is descended from David. I prefer the religion of Mahomet— it is less ridiculous than ours."

Either way, what Napoleon believed is not really relevant. What matters is the great thinkers from the Age of Enlightenment(adequately named) who aimed at the creation of secular states. It is because of them that we enjoy a tolerant society now days.
 
Feb 2019
861
Serbia
There are also several quotes attributed to him which call his faith in question:

“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

"Religions are all founded on miracles — on things we cannot understand, such as the Trinity. Jesus calls himself the Son of God, and yet is descended from David. I prefer the religion of Mahomet— it is less ridiculous than ours."

Either way, what Napoleon believed is not really relevant. What matters is the great thinkers from the Age of Enlightenment(adequately named) who aimed at the creation of secular states. It is because of them that we enjoy a tolerant society now days.
Napoleon was such a believer that he occupied the Papal States, annexed their territory (Both directly to France and to his client state Kingdom of Italy.) and got excommunicated. He also emancipated Jews and forced the Pope to accept his law code. These are not things a good Catholic of the time would do. He very much used religion as a tool and his actions were not that of a devout believer.
 
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Shtajerc

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Jul 2014
6,743
Lower Styria, Slovenia
In what way? As in it's not much of an achievement? I agree wholeheartedly.
Just like having certain sexual prefferences isn't either.



True Christians are not all too supportive of of the LGBTUVWXYZ. It's just that Christian countries are often the most secular as well and Christians have learned not to kill others for having different beliefs, which certain other religions still need to master.
 
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Feb 2019
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Just like having certain sexual prefferences isn't either.



True Christians are not all too supportive of of the LGBTUVWXYZ. It's just that Christian countries are often the most secular as well and Christians have learned not to kill others for having different believes, which certain other religions still need to master.
Exactly. One does not pride himself for reading Hesiod w/o taking the whole mythology as factual history, or for not checking what your Zodiac reads for next week. Likewise, the same principle applies to the Bible. Being an agnostic atheist simply means you don't buy the metaphysics of religious doctrines.
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,800
USA
Here is a interesting sight for comparing LGBT treatment. Here are comparisons between Turkey and Israel, showing how both countries are not on the level of the USA in terms of fair treatment of LGBT..but also showing that in some cases Israel is more liberal then Turkey and vs Versa when it comes to breaking the data down wrt the treatment of LGBT. Its obvious that a country like Turkey or Israel treats lgbt better then Iran. I beleive this topic has three groups maybe four. The 1st would be all the countries where lgbt have equal rights, I would include much of South America, all of North America and practically all of Europe in the 1st group. The 2nd group would be countries like Turkey , Israel, Japan, Russia and China where LGBT folks live but not in as fair as an environment as we see in the USA for example. The 3rd or 4th group would be the countries with criminal penalties on the books for LGBT just for openly living there life, these would be countries such as Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia.

Compare LGBT Rights in Turkey & Israel | Equaldex

One can use the source above to see that in general the Christian majority countries are scoring higher in terms of fair treatment of LGBT compared to the non Christian majority countries. Further Marriage equality is a big part of IMO this issue. And across North and South America, as well as Europe most of those areas allow LGBT folks to get married. Otoh throughout the middle east and Africa, Japan and China LGBT marriage is not allowed.

Compare LGBT Rights in Japan & Germany | Equaldex

Above is a comparison of LGBT treatment between Japan and Germany. Note the differences but also note even in Japan a significant # of non Christians approve of fair treatment of LGBT.
 
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Feb 2019
861
Serbia
Just like having certain sexual prefferences isn't either.



True Christians are not all too supportive of of the LGBTUVWXYZ. It's just that Christian countries are often the most secular as well and Christians have learned not to kill others for having different beliefs, which certain other religions still need to master.
I agree on the sexual preference, no one should be given special treatment because of it. That's like saying ''I exist, but my existence is more important than yours so give me privileges''.

I have never seen a devout, traditionalist christian support LGBT rights and I've found that the church campaigns against LGBT rights. The idea of a modern secular state separated form the church allowed for the greater rights of religious minorities and LGBT people. If we are ruled by a theocracy and the church is not separated from the state there wouldn't be much room for such liberal thoughts. Secularism is the reason for the ''unparalleled'' advancement of rights in this case, not Christianity.
 
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JoanOfArc007

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Dec 2015
3,800
USA
Would these Christian countries be democracies, where the Christians have lost all political power, and thus have to respect human rights, equality and such? You're kinda trying to give the image that the LGBT rights are respected because of Christianity...which.is.not.the.case.
Its Christians that majority wise are in power in Europe, North and South America. Pope Francis has said whom am I to judge when it comes to LGBT...based on this and other information I feel there is great evidence to support the view that the Christian religion plays a role in the fact that Christian majority countries of today are leading the way in allowing equal rights for LGBT. That said I agree that Christianity is not the sole reason for the fact that Christian majority countries treat LGBT folks better then non Christian majority countries. There are a # of reasons as to why one would support equal rights for LGBT. The OP and subsequent posts itt provides a # of those Christian leaders and Scholars that provided material showing how Christianity teaches to treat LGBT folks as equals. So I would argue that Christianity is playing a notable role in improved rights for LGBT people.

If one thinks about it, when you ask a person from North or South America, or Europe why Gay folks should be treated with respect, often the response is going to be its the Christian thing to do.

Though imagine If the USA or Norway was not Christian majority would they still have equal rights for LGBT as they do today? Maybe they would but maybe they would not. There could be other factors such as poverty and the economy that play a role in how LGBT folks are treated in countries. In a poorer country it may be easier for politicians to get support from folks by propping up lies about how the so called west has gay rights which ruins a society. These distractions that politicians put on are often a distraction from a poor economy.
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,800
USA
Joan, how many gay marriages have taken place inside of Catholic churches? How many bishops or prominent Catholic leaders/figures have supported same sex marriage? Have any popes been supportive of gay marriage?
Menshevik,

My friend I feel Thats a important but also separate issue you bring up above compared to how Christian majority countries treat lgbt folks. And in fact the OP shows Catholic people that support LGBT marriage. Thats the key issue, is a Catholic in the USA going to a support a LGBT person being able to have there marriage recognized by the Gov which exerts power over the religious leaders of the USA. Thats the difference between the USA and South Africa compared to Israel and Saudi the latter are intolerant theocratic states. To that point though as a Catholic I support gay marriage but I do know the Catholic Church does not perform gay marriages. Though keep in mind The Vatican State does not have the power it used to, its a small country that is largely symbolic. And the Church is not excommunicating people that push for equal rights for LGBT. To that point it has been shown itt that a Historian John Boswell has shown that gay marriage was performed by early Church leaders. This could be used to perhaps in the future argue that the Church perform gay marriage. And of course Pope Francis while not directly supporting gay marriage to my knowledge, has spoken of supporting and loving LGBT people.

The main point is that by far Christian majority countries treat LGBT folks better then non Christian majority countries. That could change in the future as huge masses of non Christians worldwide support equal rights for LGBT. And ample evidence has been shown where we can read about Catholics and other types of Christians through history that have played a role in getting us to where we are today, that is how we see its Christian majority countries that lead the way in fair treatment of lgbt.
 
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