US Army Bases...WTF

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
I’d say that organizing an army whose sole purpose is to kill American soldiers is pretty much a betrayal.
Not to mention that slavery was the prime motivator in determining whether to throw loyalties in with state or country. The counties in Confederate states where support for the Union ran high throughout the war (Ex. East Tennessee, Western North Carolina, some heavily wooded counties in south Alabama) were ones where the ratio of slave to free was low.

The higher proportion of slaves to free, the higher the support for the Confederacy. South Carolina and Mississippi, the states with the highest percentages of slaves, were also the first two to secede.
 

Tercios Espanoles

Ad Honorem
Mar 2014
6,663
Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
I suppose it is worth mentioning that the president at the time most of the bases named for southerners were built was Wilson - an ardent "lost causer" who allegedly lamented the outcome of the civil war.



What input he may have had in the naming of those bases I don't know, but I suspect he was naturally surrounding himself with like-minded individuals.
 

Jax Historian

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
4,379
Here
I’d say that organizing an army whose sole purpose is to kill American soldiers is pretty much a betrayal.
Right. Whether Lee thought he should be loyal to Virginia rather than the U.S. is not the issue. He committed treason against the U.S. by the definition of treason in the Constitution.

Using the tax money of U.S. citizens to revere Lee in any way is absurd. Neo-Confederates can buy private property for parks, put statues on it, open a Confederate Disneyland for all I care, but get this crap out of the face of the public who doesn't want to see it.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,630
San Antonio, Tx
Re the carvings on Stone Mountain just outside of Atlanta: while those would be targeted for removal by my standard, I believe they are too identified with Atlanta and they draw too many tourists to sand blast them off the face of the "mountain", although I could go for removing Davis. I favor some kind of explanatory signs regarding how and when the carvings got there, the connection with the KKK, etc. And I'd take the statue of Gene Talmadge out of the capital grounds, just like they've moved the statute of Tom Watson into a neglected corner across the street from the Capital.
If it were up to me, I’d dynamite the whole thing, but it isn’t and that is not likely ever to happen.
 

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,324
Should they take down the statues of William Wallace in Scotland? He was convicted of treason.

What about the statues of General Thomas? He committed treason against Virginia by the same law under which John Brown was convicted. And what about the statues of John Brown, who was convicted of treason?
 
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Jax Historian

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
4,379
Here
Should they take down the statues of William Wallace in Scotland? He was convicted of treason.
I don't care what they do in Scotland. I don't pay taxes there.

What about the statues of General Thomas? He committed treason against Virginia by the same law under which John Brown was convicted. And what about the statues of John Brown, who was convicted of treason?
I don't care about that either because I don't care about the state of Virginia. I care about those who committed treason against the United States. What Virginians do about statues of traitors to Virginian is up to Virginians.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,630
San Antonio, Tx
Confederate States of America

The side you're referring to weren't called Americans, they were called the USA, Union, Yankees, Blue Bellies, Blue Coats.

If you're going to be filled with hate over a historical event that ended 150 years ago, at least know your history.
Take a chill pill...the people who took up arms against the United States were traitors, nothing more or less.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,630
San Antonio, Tx
I never suggested Union veterans were a monolithic group with a single opinion. You did.

You're also making that mistake with the mention of the reunion at Gettysburg, as if it somehow refutes that there was opposition to Confederate memorials at Gettysburg or that the GAR opposed decoration of Confederate graves at Arlington. The Gettysburg reunion is another example of how the opinions of surviving veterans weren't uniform. While many elderly veterans from both sides did meet and shake hands on the Gettysburg battlefield, others (north & south) refused to attend and voiced discontent in newspaper editorials or veterans periodicals. There was at least one physical altercation as well at Gettysburg between elderly Union and Confederate veterans.

The notion that the veterans of both sides uniformly forgot "the late unpleasantness" and embraced their former enemies is patriotic myth.

Reconstruction failed not because of the radical Republicans, but because white supremacists in the south vehemently opposed the freedmen being given equal rights as citizens, often violently, and because many white northerners were more than willing to throw the freedmen under the bus for the sake of national reconciliation. Racism and conciliatory attitudes were the problem.




I did no such thing. You've gone from Appeal to Authority to the Strawman fallacy.

I presented EH Rhodes as an example of how objection to Confederate monuments was not entirely modern, and nothing more.




Are we still discussing military bases? Local people should have no say in the naming of military bases, since those bases are homes to people from all over the country, not recruits from the town outside the gates.

A U.S. Army base being named for someone like Stonewall Jackson is fairly ridiculous when Jackson was an enemy of the United States Army, and was responsible for the deaths of thousands of U.S. Army soldiers. Furthermore he's hardly a role model for soldiers who ancestors might have fought against him, or African-American soldiers whose ancestors Jackson was fighting to keep enslaved.

If we're discussing Confederate memorials in general I agree that the local people should determine whether or not they want them. That is why Confederate memorials are now being taken down across some parts in the south. The locals are deciding that the statues no longer reflect their values, and the manufactured "outrage" is coming from people who live outside the communities where the statues were erected. (see New Orleans)
Yeah. San Antonio removed a downtown Confederate monument not very long ago. Good riddance.
 

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