US Doesn't Get Independence

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,039
SoCal
#2
There would probably be less rapid White settlement in the North American interior. Also, it's far from clear that what is now the Southwestern U.S. would have ever been lost by Mexico; rather, it could have remained part of Mexico up to the present-day.
 
Likes: M.S. Islam
Jul 2012
3,192
Dhaka
#3
What do you think the impact on the British empire would be? Would it be stronger economically, or would it be weaker due to the enormous maintenance cost (militarily and economically both) associated?

Also what would have been the global impact of absence of the mighty US? May be Japan would have been a Superpower?
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,062
Las Vegas, NV USA
#4
There was the Proclamation Line which limited western settlement, There were 13 colonies and no United States. British territory extended to the Mississippi. Further north was British Quebec which was much larger than now. Beyond that were the territories of the Hudson Bay Company. West of the Mississippi was Spanish territory. In the absence of the US many histories are possible. However it's very unlikely anything like the US would emerge.

Britain would have controlled settlement west of the Proclamation Line. The only example of how they would have treated Native Americans is how they treated them in Canada. The political geography of North America would develop according to events in Europe. Britain would likely expand its holdings at the expense of Spain but recognize the sovereignty of Mexico and the other new nations of Central and South America. The 42nd parallel would mark the boundary between Mexico and British North America.

I have to believe that the British Empire would have been even more dominant than was in the 19th century. Politically and economically it was more advanced than its competitors. However, not all the territory of the current US would be British.
 
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Likes: Futurist
Oct 2013
14,074
Europix
#5
However, not all the territory of the current US would be British.
It's what I was thinking at: Louisiana and the French, for example.

I wonder if French would have gave it away if US wouldn't have existed. If not, I suppose later would have changed a lot of things (French Empire, compared to British Empire and US never was exactly rich in oil resources, for example).
 
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stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,062
Las Vegas, NV USA
#6
It's what I was thinking at: Louisiana and the French, for example.

I wonder if French would have gave it away if US wouldn't have existed. If not, I suppose later would have changed a lot of things (French Empire, compared to British Empire and US never was exactly rich in oil resources, for example).
The time line here would have to be before 1775 when the "shot heard around the world" was fired. There would have been either so such shot or the revolution would have been quickly snuffed out. I think Spain nominally claimed had all the territory west of the Mississippi. There was no clear northern border of the Spanish claim at that time. Napoleon assumed control for the sole purpose of selling the Louisiana Purchase to the US.

I see the territory of the current US being divided primarily between Britain and Mexico. The only other players might be France and/or Russia. The Russians would hold Alaska based on an actual treaty with Britain in1820. I don't see France holding any current US territory unless they can get Hawaii and/or one or both of the two US Caribbean territories.

There is the possibility of an independent Mormon state between Mexico and BNA in the vicinity of the state of Utah .
 
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Edratman

Ad Honorem
Feb 2009
6,586
Eastern PA
#7
I wonder if French would have gave it away if US wouldn't have existed. If not, I suppose later would have changed a lot of things (French Empire, compared to British Empire and US never was exactly rich in oil resources, for example).
France ceded the "title" of French Louisiana, west of the Mississippi, to Spain in 1762 during the French-Indian War. Spain secretly ceded the territory back to France in 1801 for reasons unknown. Presuming this action still occurs, the French military presence in the territory was negligible and without a doubt the territory would have been lost to the British during the Napoleonic Wars.

The French claim to the Louisiana territory was thus weak. After the defeat of Napoleon and the Bourbon restoration in 1814 the return of the Louisiana territory to France can be considered a low probability. I presume that all of the land would have become part of British North America.

The Napoleonic Wars also weakened Spain ensuring the ensuing Latin American revolutions and independence from Spain. Mexico's claim to the southwest would have been unchanged from historical events. I would guess that Britain would have very little incentive for challenging Mexico for any of its territories, so British North America would be absent those lands.
 
Likes: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,039
SoCal
#8
It's what I was thinking at: Louisiana and the French, for example.

I wonder if French would have gave it away if US wouldn't have existed. If not, I suppose later would have changed a lot of things (French Empire, compared to British Empire and US never was exactly rich in oil resources, for example).
If Britain still wins the Napoleonic Wars in this TL (Napoleon was born in 1769, so that won't be butterflied away in this TL), then it's very possible that Britain would have still eventually acquired Louisiana in this TL.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
18,039
SoCal
#9
France ceded the "title" of French Louisiana, west of the Mississippi, to Spain in 1762 during the French-Indian War. Spain secretly ceded the territory back to France in 1801 for reasons unknown. Presuming this action still occurs, the French military presence in the territory was negligible and without a doubt the territory would have been lost to the British during the Napoleonic Wars.

The French claim to the Louisiana territory was thus weak. After the defeat of Napoleon and the Bourbon restoration in 1814 the return of the Louisiana territory to France can be considered a low probability. I presume that all of the land would have become part of British North America.

The Napoleonic Wars also weakened Spain ensuring the ensuing Latin American revolutions and independence from Spain. Mexico's claim to the southwest would have been unchanged from historical events. I would guess that Britain would have very little incentive for challenging Mexico for any of its territories, so British North America would be absent those lands.
Agreed with this entire analysis--as my post above shows. While land-hungry Americans could have still been interested in Texas, New Mexico, and Alta California, a British government that has a worldwide empire to run would probably be much less receptive to calls for war with Mexico than a US government that didn't have anything better to do.
 
Likes: Edratman