US 'war on terror' has killed over half a million people in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq

Mar 2013
2,658
the Nile to the Euphrates
In the 21st century, denying people's right to live the way they choose, in a particular place where they have been indigenous for thousands of years, based on the fact that they do not look the way you like, is inadmissible.
Yes, that's what I said. Very good that our opinions converge on the matter.
 
Dec 2015
3,170
USA
I agree to a point. Things were and are more complicated than just plain good and evil. And yes there is demonizing of the muslims in the west as there is demonizing of the west among the muslims.
The thing is we could do better with a bit less demonizng all around. Btw. the point about "dhimmi" status in true islam. That is a common argument, how this or that is not according the true islam and
how people misinterpret the Quran. When Quran according the muslims is Gods last and final word maybe He should have made his word clear enough to avoid misinterptation.
Yes fair points.

What we know is that Some Muslims dislike the freedoms and way of life in The USA, these are the AQ and ISIL types. But Christians can also be problematic and we need not go all the way back to the middle ages to find intolerant Christians. One line anti Muslims try and say is that Islam is still in the Dark ages where as Christianity has "evolved". I find such a view to be offensive but also wrong because the middle ages were not always dark, and we do not have to go back to the middle ages to find intolerant Christians.

In the USA there have recently been a few violent Christian supremacists whom have attacked black majority Churches and Jewish Synagogues and have done so in the name of Christianity. The point here is that while Christians today do not have groups like AQ and ISIL, that today and throughout WW2 for example many Christians tried to point to their religion to justify violence. Especially during WW2, far more so compared to today. Axis figures from the Independent State of Croatia and The Slovak Republic were highly Catholic but also very violent. Germany was 99 % Christian during WW2. Italy of course was a Catholic State and Italian Fascists whom themselves were also Catholic, viewed Jews for example as being inferior. OTOH we know that many Christians of the WW2 era stood for freedom and pointed to the Bible as why they fought among other reasons including patriotism. In a similar manner today but much much less of a threat compared to The Third Reich, we can see that a few thousand Muslims have joined ISIL and the ISIL Muslims do say Islam approves of torture and brutal violence. But opposing the ISIL Muslims are Millions of Muslims whom have joined the fight against ISIL, whether in the air or on the ground and the anti ISIL Muslims say ISIL is wrong about Islam.

Human history shows us that Christian leaders and Muslim leaders have attempted to input their own interpretation on religion. This includes how to intrepret words like Dhimmi, Goyim, Heritic and further trying to understand if these terms are even real and if so what can be said of them and how do they compare to other religious teachings


Muhammad also attended the funeral of a Jew, paying homage to the Religion of Judaism clearly in the process. The issue is that the word Dhimmi is similar to the word Heritic or Goyim...they are mere words that are misunderstood by anti religious folks. All 3, Dhimmi, Heritic and Goyim can be defined to mean criminals, not people of a different religion. And that is a legit argument its what many religious leaders suggest.

It gets us back to the topic, The Barbary Pirates and the United States dealing with each other. I replied to fellow poster baldtastic whom wrongly took umbrage at myself showing the fact that in Islam non Muslims are equal to Muslims. I explained to Baldtastic that in the early 19th century that the Barbary Corsairs were morally speaking no better or worse compared to their European counterparts,

Milestones: 1801–1829 - Office of the Historian

So perhaps one can see the massive delimma that Anti Muslims have. Our world today is largely a result of the work done by Christians and Muslims, whom today # of 4.5 billion people worldwide, and such a massive population is going to be diverse. Learned and studied Islamic Scholars have said that Islam treats non Muslims as equals. In fact, I have on this very board also shown a video of a Iraqi Shia Muslim officer saying in Arabic that Jews and Christians and the early Muslims fought together as one hand united in the earliest times of Islam. Indeed Muhammad fought with, not against, but fought with Jews in numerous battles. The point is that some Jews and Christians were not Dhimmis but were equal to the Muslims in the early times of Islam. It is true at one point in Muhammads life that some members of a Jewish tribe, along with some Arab Polytheists sought through deception and violence to try and take out Muhammad. So Muhammad and the early Muslims had to deal with enemies, but lets not confuse the enemies with non Muslims. After all, In Islam there is no compulsion. The Quran demands Muslims to not force non Muslims to accept Islam. The Quran asks Muslims to invite people to Islam. That is what many Muslim Imams will tell you, they might Invite you to join Islam .
 
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Dec 2015
3,170
USA
Wrong. America is the only stabilizing force in the world today. Without it there will be wars across the world. America is world's peace keeper, just as Britain was before. There are people so jealous of this role of America. There is no easy cure for this kind of jealousy.

Sometimes millions get killed to bring about a just world. Some 60 million got killed in the WW2. There is always a price to pay for the right cause. Sometimes it is not worth the price. For example, one million got killed to create Muslim Pakistan, a failed state and a terror sponsoring country.

As I have said earlier, the problems with the Islamic world lies squarely with Islam, a bully religion founded by a terrorist, where Muslims are taught and believe in emulating his life example. When Muslims rise above such blinded beliefs they will solve their problems. Until then expect Uncle Sam and the West to walk around carrying the stick.
List of wars 1945–1989 - Wikipedia

Look at the above list. It is clear that Muslims were not even involved in many of those wars. And is clear that the USA or any country for that matter, is not perfect. In fact the USA was involved in some of the wars listed above. As an American I disagree with your lead point. What about the contributrions of other European countries like England and Italy. And in Asia Japan has a leading economy, producing greats that have brought us Sony and with it The PlayStation which itself has produced jobs, pleasure and therefore stability worldwide



The USA is the worlds strongest country today. Largely due to its freedom of religion and its respect for diversity. It has been shown, Thomas Jefferson respected Islam...other Americans of the 18th and 19th century also took interest in Islam some seeing it as attractive. In the Victorian era also there were numerous European scholars whom wrote favorably of various Muslim history. Yes there was some darkness in Muslim history, same with Christian history. You talk about Islam and its founder Muhammad. Both were peaceful, the sources you have on Islam my friend are from anti Muslims and ISIL type Muslims.

The so called west included contributions from many American Muslims including many Arabs whom immigrated to the USA from the years 1880-1910. A good size of Arabs of Lebanese decent can be found in Texas today. Also in my area are many Arabs of Yemeni and Palestinian decent, some Muslim some Christian they have been in the USA for generations working at Steel mills and the auto plants...working peacefully alongside European American Christians. As an Italian American, I feel a connection to Arabs, of course the Roman Empire included Europeans and Arabs working side by side. And the very power you feel that the USA projects in the world today, well that was sort of the vision of the allies of WW2 a vision which would have included recognizing Islam and Muslims as peaceful.

The vision that FDR had for a post WW2 world was a world without wars. It was to be a world where upon China, The British Empire, The Soviet Union and The United States of America would police the world and prevent further wars. Unfortunately FDR passed away in the late stage of WW2 and a # of violent wars would follow WW2 such as The Korean War and The Vietnam War. Maybe if FDR lived on, there would have been no more wars, at least until FDRs death or the breakup of The Big 4.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,538
Now, do you think that any serious scholar, academic or historian studying this period and trying to come up with an assessment of the wars and religious violence that took place, will just put a single and crude blame on Christianity as all?
You really think a serious scholar of that period will ever characterize the religious violence during the reformation as being driven by Christian doctrine as its core? Do they ever say what underpinned, drove and provided ground for the inquisition, the witch-hunt and the massacres against Huguenot communities in France was the very core nature of Western Christendom? Do they will ever say that Christianity and Christendom in the early modern period have been corrupted/made pure Christians (that's what the puritans described themselves to be) by them using the avenue of Christianity itself, the teachings/sayings described in the Holy Bible - no secular or outside whatsoever?
The big answer is no. They will never describe this period in a such way, it would be utterly absurd, uneducated, simplistic and certainly grossly inaccurate. The same analogy can be described with the current Islamist movement spreading throughout the Muslim world since the 19th century or so.
Again this is simply ignoring facts

Such events are the reason why european countries turned secular. in the longer run... why the US grants freedom of religion (in an attempt to prevent religious wars ... which was a major concern of the founding fathers)... why the french revolution and France for a couple of centuries after that, was so anti clerical... as was the bolshevik revolution.... etc.. So of course, christian religion was clearly responsible in the eyes of, and blamed by contemporaries and next generations.. some of whom took rather drastic steps to try and eradicate it

Is anything similar happening in the muslim world ? no.... and the muslim world has had centuries to do it...... not only that we have constant apologism -even here- for Islam from all kinds of people including those who do not have harsh enough words for christianity....
 
Likes: Decembrist
Oct 2013
12,759
Europix
Again this is simply ignoring facts

Such events are the reason why european countries turned secular. in the longer run... why the US grants freedom of religion (in an attempt to prevent religious wars ... which was a major concern of the founding fathers)... why the french revolution and France for a couple of centuries after that, was so anti clerical... as was the bolshevik revolution.... etc.. So of course, christian religion was clearly responsible in the eyes of, and blamed by contemporaries and next generations.. some of whom took rather drastic steps to try and eradicate it

Is anything similar happening in the muslim world ? no.... and the muslim world has had centuries to do it...... not only that we have constant apologism -even here- for Islam from all kinds of people including those who do not have harsh enough words for christianity....

I'm sorry, tomar, but the analogy You present is flawed by an overlooking: putting religion (any religion) aside needs a heck lot more factors than only the anti-religious fight/struggle. To believe that the Muslim world doesn't "open" only because it's Muslim, only because of religion, that is, is looking at with very narrow eye-googles. There are the economical, social and political factors that are responsible too.

Let's talk example: Erdogan, and the turn of Turkey from a secular, slightly anti-religious country intro a nationalist-religious one. Where exactly is the difference with Putin's Russia, that from a very anti-religious country (RSFSR in the URSS) turned to a nationalist-religious one?

Another one: France, that fought two centuries against religion, for acquiring and defending human/democratic/civil rights. Do You remember some of the biggest manifestations in the last decade (apart Charly Hebdo)? It was against "le mariage pour tous" ("marriage for all" = legalising gay marriage). France manifested "en masse" not for a right, but against a right. And it was largely backed by the religious organisms and large fringes of religious French. And the amplitude of the demonstrations prooved how far we are in fact of the Epinal image of "modernity", "openess", etc.

No, religion is very far from being the one and only factor. No, radicalism isn't specific to Muslim religion. Yes, religious radicals are all around, amongst us, regardless how they name their God, regardless what's the title of their Holly Book.
 
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Likes: Tulius
Aug 2009
5,066
Londinium
This post summarizes very well some of the problems Westerners (unless he is an expert) generally have when trying to explain the problems in the Middle East and the Muslim World in general.

Consider this analogy:
Look at Europe from 16th to the 17th centuries: Reformation rocked Europe. Major political, religious and social crisis is ensued. New sects, religious institutions and churches appear bringing a new kind of religious fervor, zealotry and devotion. Protestantism actively acts against the religious establishment and act in hostility to it.
Consequently major violence takes place - Protestant movements and newly converted polities that joined the reformation commit actions of organized violence, the Catholic Church, against this wave of this apparent "heresy", launches a new campaign of violence and new religious fervor of its own - the Counter-reformation.
I assume you know the story: Europe is embroiled in the largest episode of violence and war since the end of the Roman Empire - the violence clearly had a religious character and it was made in the name of religion.

Now, do you think that any serious scholar, academic or historian studying this period and trying to come up with an assessment of the wars and religious violence that took place, will just put a single and crude blame on Christianity as all?
You really think a serious scholar of that period will ever characterize the religious violence during the reformation as being driven by Christian doctrine as its core? Do they ever say what underpinned, drove and provided ground for the inquisition, the witch-hunt and the massacres against Huguenot communities in France was the very core nature of Western Christendom? Do they will ever say that Christianity and Christendom in the early modern period have been corrupted/made pure Christians (that's what the puritans described themselves to be) by them using the avenue of Christianity itself, the teachings/sayings described in the Holy Bible - no secular or outside whatsoever?
The big answer is no. They will never describe this period in a such way, it would be utterly absurd, uneducated, simplistic and certainly grossly inaccurate. The same analogy can be described with the current Islamist movement spreading throughout the Muslim world since the 19th century or so.
I can't give a full response as I'm away from a pc and my phone is to awkward to address each point. I hope to do so next week when I have more time.

For now I will say that this isn't a sectarian thing as new Islamic sects havent arsien in our lifetime. Furthermore, and much more relevant to my previous point, unlike Christianity, Islam is often self describing as a "complete way of life" I.e. it includes religious, theological and spiritual aspects but much more, it includes strict and well defined political and social laws as well. These follow from the teachings/saying if the prophet as much as his revelation (Quran). Mohammed, unlike Jesus, held and sought political and military power.

I argue that Islam is distinct in this regard and therefore any comparisons between Christianity in Europe AND the US is not applicable to any meangiful way. Also, please bare in mind that Islam is the final reveerlation from god and can't be altered. The prevailing social attitides can be changed via secular law and these advances should not be held up as Islamic, far from it.
 
Dec 2015
3,170
USA
In the United States up until 1865 Christian Americans argued with power backing them that the Bible justified slavery.

As late as 1865, black Christians and Muslims were enslaved by white Christians in the USA and it was justified based on The Bible. Everyone whom has minutely studied US history knows that pro Abolitionist and anti Abolitionists pointed to The Bible.

Islam is similar to Christianity in the sense that Muslims throughout history have pointed to Islam as justification for liberal actions as well as conservative criminal actions such as how ISIL today enslaves Shia Muslims and ISIL members speak ill against Christianity fully believing they are right. Similarly anti Muslims today like ISIL Members speak very ill about Islam, utterly convinced they are right that Islam is a unique and backward religion.

Christians have a 2000 year history. Muslims have a 1400 year history. The sheer massive number of followers of both religions, today standing at over 4.5 billion with Christianity being the most followed religion in the world shows us that to say Islam is unique and backward can never make sense. Islam can not be backward, Muslims today # of 2 billion followers producing scientists and very family oriented nice people from the middle east and Asia. This is not a glamours view of Islam or Muslims being presented. Rather we can see that there is enormous economic success in the GCC states today which are Muslim majority. And it is not because of oil, rich resources are found in poor countries that are poor because they have corrupt and intolerant leadership such as in Venezuela. While there may be intolerance from The GCC states, The GCC states are led by competent people they just have conservative views religiously speaking that are similar to Trump spiritual advisor Pastor Jeffress. Other Muslim countries such as Indonesia and Turkey have a solid economy and certainly Turkey unlike any other middle east country has USA style freedom.

One wonders if anti Muslims understand that Turkey legalized voting for females in the early 20th century, ahead of numerous Christian countries in Europe. That would not have occurred had Islam been so backward that it holds Muslims back from being liberal.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,538
Islam can not be backward, Muslims today # of 2 billion followers producing scientists and very family oriented nice people from the middle east and Asia. This is not a glamours view of Islam or Muslims being presented. Rather we can see that there is enormous economic success in the GCC states today which are Muslim majority. .
It has been some 500 years since the muslim world has produced any scientists of note... This sad fact alone should point to the non voluntarily blind and non deaf how severe the issues with Islam are.....

There is no economic success in the GCC whatsoever. The countries are simply sitting on huge oil and gas reserves... Otherwise they produce nothing of note..... There is not a single manufactured product known worldwide that comes from these countries.... bar perhaps some rugs.... No inventions of note come from there either... Despite huge wealth literally falling from the sky, these countries still enforce a middle age version of religion and some of the most fanatical islamists come from there.
 
Likes: redskevin
Sep 2014
647
Texas
Going to attribute Pakistan deaths too? Okay, sure. Why not? Its not like they've dealt with their own issues with Islamist extremists before 2001. Nope, all that conflict, like Iraq and Afghanistan, only started after America invaded. Afghanistan wasn't a war zone between Northern Alliance and Taliban. Iraq was completely peaceful and prosperous nation, everyone loving everyone.
Sunnis and Shiites have been murdering each other for a thousand years. Arm Kurdish women and all victims of Arab slavery.
 

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