Vai syllabery is from 3000 BC ???

Jan 2018
16
Hello, here is what Wikipedia has to say about Vai origins :

Bukele is regarded within the Vai community, as well as by most scholars, as the syllabary's inventor and chief promoter when it was first documented in the 1830s
But... this is what our "Afrocentric" brothers had to say :

Evidence of its antiquity comes from inscriptions from Goundaka, Mali, that date to 3000 B.C.
So then I tried to do some research, to know what is the evidence.

I made multiple searches and then I find this Dr. Clyde Winters blog :

He claims that Vai is 3000 years old:
The Antiquity of the Mertoutek Oued Inscription
http://olmec98.net/libyco.htm

I don't really trust this source, so I try to find another source.

I search "Vai Goundaka Mali"

And everything directs me to Dr. Clyde Winters.

So apparently this guy wrote that we find Vai syllabary in the Grotte de Goundaka, and everybody is copying his claims.

I try to go deeper and I find this thread.

I will not discuss their claims on what "Lybico-Berber" means, for me, it refers to Tifinagh, what interests me is when they talk about Maroon being familiar with the script, the Poro secret society and Delafosse.

Let's read Delafosse

Les Vaï : leur langue et leur système d'écriture / par Maurice Delafosse,... | Gallica

Translation :
"It's an ancient writing that was written in the past, but nowadays many of these characters are no longer in use or form in a different way. We can read this writing because our grandfathers used it and our fathers knew it, but now young people could not read it, even those who read and write fluently"

Here Delafosse is discussing Vai syllabary origins :

According to Forbes, Vai Alphabet would have been invented to 1829 or 1839 by 8 natives named : Duada Keragai, Fange Sagbo, Duadu Bukera, Ngrolo Ulo, Duadu Ta m/w i, Bai Bise, Ganama, Kai-Folo. I don't know if these names were populars among Vai during 1849, but they seem totally unknown from today Vai, even elders.
Notice that Bukele isn't mentioned and that Delafosse apparently doesn't know about the story of Bukele dream.

As for the date of the invention of this alphabet, I think it's more ancient
I asked many lettered Vai, they all said they don't know the exact origin, but that it's probably from 2 century or even older. We're far from Forbes numbers. I heard that some natives that this alphabet comes from the mountainous region of Niger, whose southern slope is inhabited today by Vai mixed with Mande from Kouranko and Kissi, and northern slope by Mande from Kouranko.
Then the author critics violently Forbes :

Forbes hired one of those a "civilised" Black from America, who at this time, was declaring himself a "Liberian", that was probably able to speak(very incorrectly) the language of the natives, the truth is that those Liberians ignore natives, because, by imbecile contempt, they don't try to understand them, and are also incapable of doing it --- The "civilized" Black, the Liberian, is a wound that we need to get away from at all cost
Also, Forbes only visited some villages of the coast, but, in Africa, villages of the coast are in no way able to gives an idea of indigenous civilizations, because they are too influenced by Europeans.
He then says something interesting "Vai is actually in use everywhere where there is Vai, from Niger to the sea and from Monrovia to Sherbro"

Here the author has a strange theory, comparing Vai with Latin alphabet:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f37.highres
Les Vaï : leur langue et leur système d'écriture / par Maurice Delafosse,... | Gallica

He thinks the Europeans manuscripts magically appeared and then that the Vai "according to the tradition that reigns in any negro country, were convinced that the superiority of whites was from their ability to put characters on the paper(as they weren't influenced by Islam), and then copied it"

Here we have a page where the author compares Berbers alphabet and Vai(like Clyde)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k77450r/f39.highres

Ok, so apparently Wikipedia follows David Diringer, and Clyde and other "Afrocentrist" sources are just unknown and blurry for now or are Clyde himself.

What do you think?
 
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Apr 2017
724
Lemuria
You didn't present any valid evidence from established scholars or pictures of archaeological artifacts for debate. Just a collection of links from amateur websites probably full of malwares. Pretty much nonsense. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You have the time to write an entire essay on the matter, yet you don't have the time to assess the claim rigorously (which should be the first step) because you want the claim to be true by default.
 
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cachibatches

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2,351
Clyde Winters is a delusional con-artist who thinks the Olmecs where black, and every big rock he sees in Africa is an eroded pyramid.

He also lies about his credenitals. It has been exposed on Youtube.

You would do best to ignore him.
 
Jan 2018
16
You didn't present any valid evidence from established scholars or pictures of archaeological artifacts for debate. Just a collection of links from amateur websites probably full of malwares. Pretty much nonsense. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You have the time to write an entire essay on the matter, yet you don't have the time to assess the claim rigorously (which should be the first step) because you want the claim to be true by default.
I want the claim to be true by default? You didn't understand what I was trying to do.

What I was trying to find is not if this is true or not, but where this "3000 BC" comes from, to see if it's a serious number, and the only serious sources that I found was Delafosse book.

I even made some searches on google books and google scholar, so apparently, this is not very serious. But Delafosse said a lot of interesting things too that we should not overlook.

Do you consider Delafosse an amateur?

Clyde Winters is a delusional con-artist who thinks the Olmecs where black, and every big rock he sees in Africa is an eroded pyramid.

He also lies about his credenitals. It has been exposed on Youtube.

You would do best to ignore him.
I know, that's why I said multiple time in my post that "I don't trust this source", but apparently those claims that it appeared in Goundaka, Mali comes from him. I wouldn't trust a guy who believes Vai has been created in America, and then jump and shows me a picture of Tifinagh in North Africa.


The EgyptReloaded post about maroons has a lot of unverified claims, for example

The British took over Suriname and ended slavery in 1799. Years before Bukele's alleged invention of the Vai writing. As a result, there is no way a descendant of a Suriname Maroon (runaway slave) could have produced the writing under possession by the spirit winti if the writing was invented by Bukele.
I tried to find if this story was true but I don't find any sources. A lot of his sources are not on the internet.

I also didn't find any sources claiming Maroons were familiar with the text, I tried to see if there are similarities between Vai and Afaka, there isn't.

I know you find this site an amateur website, but what interests me are the sources he uses in this specific post, I don't show interest in the rest of their discussion.
 
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Apr 2017
724
Lemuria
I want the claim to be true by default? You didn't understand what I was trying to do.

What I was trying to find is not if this is true or not, but where this "3000 BC" comes from, to see if it's a serious number, and the only serious sources that I found was Delafosse book.

I even made some searches on google books and google scholar, so apparently, this is not very serious. But Delafosse said a lot of interesting things too that we should not overlook.



I know, that's why I said multiple time in my post that "I don't trust this source", but apparently those claims that it appeared in Goundaka, Mali comes from him. I wouldn't trust a guy who believes Vai has been created in America.


The EgyptReloaded post about maroons has a lot of unverified claims, for example



I tried to find if this story was true but I don't find any sources. A lot of his sources are not on the internet.

I also didn't find any sources claiming Maroons were familiar with the text, I tried to see if there are similarities between Vai and Afaka, there isn't.

I know you find this site an amateur website, but what interests me are the sources he uses in this specific post, I don't show interest in the rest of their discussion.
Your default state to any claim should always be skepticism not what you personally wish or desire to be true. After rationally examining the claim, then you may conclude against your default position if applicable. This way of thinking is not only rational but it has the real life advantage of protecting you from con artists as well. Con artists usually will exploit your greed and desire against you.
 
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Jan 2018
16
Your default state to any claim should always be skepticism not what you personally wish or desire to be true.
Thanks. By skepticism, I was trying to find the sources of this "3000 BC". But I'm also skeptic of Bukele's story and the story of the 8 inventors, don't know what is the most accurate. I can understand why Wikipedia choose Bukele's stories after reading Delafosse critic of Forbes, also Koelle has done a lot of research.

During
Koelle's several visits, one of his informants, tiring of the pertinacity of
his white visitor, complained that "a black man is not able to sit down
a whole day in one place and do nothing but book-palaver."5

If this is any indication of the vigorous environment in which Bukele and his
contemporaries lived, it would seem unlikely that they set about inventing
the script after a dream. What seems far more feasible is that the
writing itself developed from a previous semasiological system to a pictographic
system and then (perhaps with some initiative from Bukele)
into a syllabic system. What Momolu Massaquoi has said could be put
even more strongly: "Great credit is ascribed to Duala Bukelle [sic]
and his literary party; but even prior to his dream there were a few
rude signs used by the Vais which did not express, but merely suggested
ideas. These signs were in the form of hieroglyphics and Duala seems
to have improved upon and utilised them thoroughly in his new compositions."
It is improbable that within the period of a few years Bukele
could have developed his "few rude signs" to such an extent that manuscripts
were actually produced.
One can readily conclude from this that the language had been written for many years, perhaps centuries, and that it developed from the kind of pictographic representations discussed above. As for Bukele's "dream," one can concur with H. H. Johnson that "Doalu Bokere's [sic] mind especially was so entirely wrapped up in his ardent desire to be able to read and write that it occupied his thoughts night and day, and this formed the natural basis of his curious dream, which seems to have been the reflex of his waking thoughts." The actual age of the writing is not subject to a great deal of dispute. Delafosse argues quite plausibly that the Vai used the script before the Islamic invasion; if not they would most certainly have adopted the Arabic script. He maintains that the probable date could be as early as the beginning of the sixteenth century, and there is some support for this. For although F. W. Migeood thinks the Vai settled in Liberia in 1700, there is evidence to support A. P. Kup's contention that there was a movement of the Vai from Sierra Leone after the defeat of the troops of the Songhai empire in 1590 by the Sultan of Morocco. It is not surprising, therefore, that P. E. Hair, analyzing an early seventeenth century vocabulary of Vai, mentioned that "a vocabulary of Vai had been collected and printed two centuries earlier under another name."
It is more than possible that these efforts by Europeans to reduce Vai to a written form might have stimulated indigenous interest in attempting the same. This was not, as Johnson has claimed, "clumsy adaptations of Roman letters or of conventional signs employed by Europeans," but rather, as Klingenheben has suggested, a development from the "ancient and imperfect mode of indicating conceptual contents by pictures into the phonetically perfect system of syllabic writing." Vai was a developed form of writing which was widely used and which could
express a literature
The Black Mind, O.R. Dathorne, p11-12

The first published report of the Vai script appeared in the June 1834
issue of the Missionary Herald, the same ABCFM journal that had
printed articles on the Cherokee script in 1827 and 1828.28 While in
the report itself no link was suggested with the Cherokee script, the
editor of the Herald attached the following note:

The occasion and manner of its being invented, as well as the characteristics
of this method of writing, are nearly the same as those of the Cherokee alphabet invented by Guess,
which is now so generally understood and used by the Indians of that tribe
Cherokee and West Africa: Examining the Origins of the Vai Script, p436-437
 
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