Very detailed video on the Swahili Coast

Jun 2013
865
Universe
#21
An Abbasid derivation? But perhaps this is also "not worthy", of your evidently vast intellect and deep scholarship!? My having merely referred to the Kilwa Sultanate, and some further advanced academic enquiry on the topic.

That would be...

I don't...

,
OP and the video was addressing the early Swahili periods while you(which I doubt even watched the video based on your posts) is talking about the Omani/Portuguese period of the later centuries. Those are two very different timelines and for good reasons. For one the Islam they practiced during the earlier centuries(8th-13th century) was different from the Islam they practice now. It was less "conservative" back then.

And yes, the Kilwa chronicles are not to be taken seriously or at face value.
 
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Sep 2015
1,788
England
#22
OP and the video was addressing the early Swahili periods while you(which I doubt even watched the video based on your posts) is talking about the Omani/Portuguese period of the later centuries. Those are two very different timelines and for good reasons. For one the Islam they practiced during the earlier centuries(8th-13th century) was different from the Islam they practice now. It was less "conservative" back then.

And yes, the Kilwa chronicles are not to be taken seriously or at face value.
On this last point, 'Not to be taken seriously or at face value':

Arabic/Somali culture had a strong tradition of verbal memory, and particularly of lineages. In fact perhaps almost exclusively of lineages! So therefore if we consider the question of the lineages of the actual rulers, you might think, or know, they ought to have been of the very first importance, and the most remembered, cherished even, and sustained of any in the entire region. For a person (son of ra) that claims superiority of scholarship in this area, we ought to have some doubts about anything you have to say now, perhaps about any topic at all!

The list of Arabo-Islamic named rulers, all 46 of them dating from possibly 957AD to 1505AD can be found here Kilwa Sultanate - Wikipedia

And moreover the Arab or Somali Islamic's may have partially lost their spoken language, but maintained their written language, and may well have maintained 'their habits of social organisation [and] over many generations', with a corresponding social prestige attached to clan association and family identity (the rulers names might be a clue).
 
Mar 2012
380
#23
Dreuxeng Id be cautious of taking alleged founding lineages too serious, the wikipedia source you posted claims that Al Shirazi was half Abyssinian and further says
Rather than being a literal retelling of events, this legendary history serves to legitimize the dynasty through ties to Islam. According to Horton and Middleman, "the descent from a noble Islamic family and an Abyssinian (Ethiopian) slave 'explains' why the rulers were both black but also with royal Muslim descent; the giving of cloth to the ruler made him 'civilized' and so his daughter became marriageable.
 
Jun 2013
865
Universe
#24
On this last point, 'Not to be taken seriously or at face value':

Arabic/Somali culture had a strong tradition of verbal memory, and particularly of lineages. In fact perhaps almost exclusively of lineages! So therefore if we consider the question of the lineages of the actual rulers, you might think, or know, they ought to have been of the very first importance, and the most remembered, cherished even, and sustained of any in the entire region. For a person (son of ra) that claims superiority of scholarship in this area, we ought to have some doubts about anything you have to say now, perhaps about any topic at all!

The list of Arabo-Islamic named rulers, all 46 of them dating from possibly 957AD to 1505AD can be found here Kilwa Sultanate - Wikipedia

And moreover the Arab or Somali Islamic's may have partially lost their spoken language, but maintained their written language, and may well have maintained 'their habits of social organisation [and] over many generations', with a corresponding social prestige attached to clan association and family identity (the rulers names might be a clue).
First of all lose the ad hominen and character assassination or I'll just won't respond to you. Second, not sure what you are trying to conjure with this post? What does Somalis have to do with the Swahili? And your Wikipedia link does not tell us much or address anything. Yes, the Kilwa Chronicals are no longer to be taken seriously.

The Kilwa Chronicle is the name of a collected genealogy of the sultans who ruled the Swahili culture from Kilwa. Two texts, one in Arabic and one in Portuguese, were written in the early 1500s, and together they provide a glimpse into the history of the Swahili coast, with particular emphasis on that of Kilwa Kisiwani and its sultans of the Shirazi dynasty. Archaeological excavations at Kilwa and elsewhere have led to a reappraisal of these documents, and it is clear that, as is typical with historical records, the texts are not to be completely trusted: both versions were written or edited with political intent.

Regardless of what we today consider the reliability of the documents, they were used as manifestos, created from oral traditions by rulers who followed the Shirazi dynasty to legitimize their authority. Scholars have come to recognize the chronicle's semi-mythical aspect, and the Bantu roots of the Swahili language and culture have become less clouded by the Persian mythologies.
Who Were the Sultans of the Swahili Culture?

And before you say anything my link references multiple sources. Furthermore the founders of the Swahili civilization were Bantu and archaeology findings especially by Tanzania's professor Felix Chami supports all of this. Not sure what more has to be argued. Unless... You can fetch me a source material outside the Kilwa Chronicles that states Kilwa and the other Swahili city states were founded by non-Bantus Swahilis.
 
Sep 2015
1,788
England
#25
First of all lose the ad hominen and character assassination or I'll just won't respond to you. Second, not sure what you are trying to conjure with this post? What does Somalis have to do with the Swahili? And your Wikipedia link does not tell us much or address anything. Yes, the Kilwa Chronicals are no longer to be taken seriously.
You have been caught out. What do you expect of people? It could serve as a warning. I would rather sensible discussion
 
Sep 2015
1,788
England
#27
First of all lose the ad hominen and character assassination or I'll just won't respond to you. Second, not sure what you are trying to conjure with this post? What does Somalis have to do with the Swahili? And your Wikipedia link does not tell us much or address anything. Yes, the Kilwa Chronicals are no longer to be taken seriously.


Who Were the Sultans of the Swahili Culture?

And before you say anything my link references multiple sources. Furthermore the founders of the Swahili civilization were Bantu and archaeology findings especially by Tanzania's professor Felix Chami supports all of this. Not sure what more has to be argued. Unless... You can fetch me a source material outside the Kilwa Chronicles that states Kilwa and the other Swahili city states were founded by non-Bantus Swahilis.
I would be repeating the same as i have already said in this thread. But to add yet more: mosques were built from at least c.13th onwards, more or less.
 
Sep 2015
1,788
England
#28
The founding of the Kilwa Sultanate with colonists may have been due to the Saljuqs take-over.
Thoughts?

Chittick (1965) was of the opinion that the dates in the Kilwa chronicle were too early, and the. Shirazi dynasty began no earlier than the late 12th century. A hoard of coins found at Mtambwe. Mkuu have provided support for the start of the Shirazi dynasty as the 11th century.
There is also the issue of and trade in headstones before 1500.

Ibn Battuta made a note of the ruler during his time in Kilwa, which is the same name as appears in the Kilwa Chronicle which has the precise dates of his rule - in the early 1300s.
 
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Jun 2013
865
Universe
#29
The 12th century? The Swahili trade and even some of the mosques(mostly wooden) go back older than the 12th century.

But notice how he didn't even bother to address the source I posted but just spam post. Yea, I'll come back once you start actually address that quote.
 
Sep 2015
1,788
England
#30
The 12th century? The Swahili trade and even some of the mosques(mostly wooden) go back older than the 12th century.

But notice how he didn't even bother to address the source I posted but just spam post. Yea, I'll come back once you start actually address that quote.
Boy oh boy oh boy. Yawn, al-sabt. The quote in my post immediately above Is from your source, you wombat.

There are only three sentences to pick from in my above post that addresses the quote. You could even guess, big lad. You might even get it right. If you've the courage when challenged.