Violence in earliest Islam

Nov 2016
559
Germany
#42
although both the commentators say that story is wrong,and hence must be taken as such.
A well reputed Muhammad biographer, William Muir, who favors the authenticity of the narrative, writes (The Life of Mahomet, Vol.II, ch.2):

It is not without much hesitation that I have followed Sprenger and Weil in adopting this version of the marriage. It has a strongly improbable air; but its very improbability gives ground for believing that it has not been fabricated. It is also highly disparaging to the position of Mahomet at a period of his life when it is the object of his followers to show that he was respected and honoured. Its credibility is therefore sustained by the Canon III. C laid down in chap. i. of the Introduction. There was no object in vilifying Khuweilid or the Bani Asad; and, even if it is possible to suppose the story fabricated by Mahomet's enemies before the conquest of Mecca, it would (if resting on no better foundation) have fallen out of currency afterwards. We seem therefore to have no option but to receive it as a fact, which later traditionists have endeavoured to discredit, under the impression that it was a foul spot on their Prophet's character that Khadija, the pattern of wives, should have brought about her marriage with Mahomet by making her father drunk.

As to Azad67´s inquiries:

Quote:
He used to have fleeing "unbelievers" cut off their hands and pierce their eyes and set them out in the desert.


This is indeed not a perfect rendition of the recorded issue, since there is only one report of such an event, what naturally doesn´t mean that it was singular. Anyway, the reason for such a brutal punishment included murder of a shepherd and theft of camels, however, the text speaks clearly of "disbelievers", that is, men who were denying Islam. The brutality shown by Muhammad has contributed a lot to the image of Islam as a religion of violence.

Sahih Bukhari 4:52:261

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.")

In the following quote, the term ´non-Jewish´ must have originated in the process of the digital translation of my German original text, what I overlooked when proof-reading the result. Of course the Jewish males of the Banu Qurayza tribe are meant. Again, this event has contributed a lot to the negative image of Islam.

Quote:
One year later, Muhammad's army was defeated by the Meccans in the desert. Back in Medina Muhammad abandoned all scruples and killed every non-Jewish man who did not want to convert to Islam. The families left behind were sold as slaves.
 
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Likes: Zanis
Aug 2018
60
Anatolia
#43
In 619, after Khadidya's death, Muhammad married 14 women who had to wear a veil in public, which became the model for the Islamic veil customs of later times. He also married 6- or 7-year-old Aisha, whose dowry consisted of toys. According to Hadiths, the marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9.
Sources vary on the age of Aisha, nevertheless everyone turn their eyes on sources claiming her to be 14/17. The notion that Aisha was 7 y.o. is based on the assumption that Aisha was born after Islam, whereas some sources claim that Aisha was born 10 years before Islam for she was 100 years old when she died. That was a political marriage. People also don't know that many of the women Muhammad married were already over 50 years old, as an act of protectorate for widows.

622 Muhammad settled in Yathrib, where he had found many followers. The city was renamed "Medina" (medinat en-Nebi = City of the Prophet) and was the scene of Muhammad's first calls to jihad, to ´Holy war´, initially against the inhabitants of Mecca in the form of brutal attacks on Meccan caravans. 20 percent of the booty passed into Muhammad's personal possession. 624 the Meccans tried to defeat Muhammad´s army, lost however because of numerical inferiority and because Muhammad had ordered the poisoning - ignoring the unwritten ´desert law´ which prohibits such measures - of the wells on Meccan territory. One year later, Muhammad's army was defeated by the Meccans in the desert. Back in Medina Muhammad abandoned all scruples and killed every non-Jewish man who did not want to convert to Islam. The families left behind were sold as slaves.
Brutal attacks were made on the very people who drove Muslim community out of their very own Mecca, the same people who persecuted them. It was a war with all the captives and casualties. Unlike the Christian theology of pacifist and forgiving attitude towards enemies, Muslim one is quite warlike: the well known quote of Muhammad "War is deception."The holy book of Islam orders to attack and kill them in a war before they kill you, and adds that not to accept their peace offering once they violated it.
In 627 all adult male Jews in Banu Qurayza were beheaded whereby the Prophet participated in the action. 630 Mecca surrendered to the supremacy of the Islamic army. Muhammad had all polytheistic icons destroyed and threatened every inhabitant who did not want to accept the Islamic faith with death. 632 he died in Medina shortly after instructing his subordinates to expel all unbelievers from Arabia.
Unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam, in its basic text and in important secondary texts, claims political rule over the entire human kind right from the start. The brutality of founder Muhammad is well documented. Some examples:
+ He financed his army and also personally enriched himself by ordering brutal attacks on caravans and surrounding tribes and selling the families of killed men who had refused to convert to Islam into slavery.
+ After the attack on the Jewish tribe of Khaibar, he extracted information from the chief of the tribe, Kinana, about his gold hiding place by torture, that is, by putting glowing coals on Kinana's chest until he finally betrayed the place.
+ After he had Kinana and his nephew beheaded, he raped the 17-year-old nephew's bride.
+ He used to have fleeing "unbelievers" cut off their hands and pierce their eyes and set them out in the desert.
The narration of Jewish persecution of Benu Kuraiza wasn't based on Islamic yet Jewish sources, acc. Islamic sources dating after the persecution Jews are mentioned to be in the very region, also no traces of holes filled hundreds of bodies to be found. Had Muhammad persecuted non-Muslims in such fashion, esp. Jews, his descendant rulers and later generation Muslim states would do the same. Yet Jewish community used to be everywhere in the Muslim world. Muslims in fact were the only ones who didn't systematically persecute Jews until late 20th century.
-There are many accounts of Muhammad's asking his friends for a few coins as debt. When he was in his deathbed, his wife had to sell some animals to pay his debts as he asked, all he left were some camels, a white mule, some fields, 2 to 3 palm trees and his weapons.
Even the one precious armour he had was lend upon pawn to a Jew. There are many anecdotes of these men protecting Jews rights. Just like the time a Jew claimed a shield or armour to be his after Ali mistakenly left it at somewhere. Before the judge, Ali provides witnesses but the judge ruled it against Ali, telling him the witnesses he provided were close companions of him, thus unreliable. Another time Muhammad stands up out of respect when he sees a dead Jew being carried for burial.
Before Islam Arabs didn't even have a state of their own. With war and religion Muhammad managed to make Arabs a nation. A few centuries later these people riding camels had navies, military and diplomacy and even attempted to capture the mighty Constantinople however they failed, not to mention they became a major threat to Byzantine, conquered Persia, invaded Iberia and captured the Mediterranean.
It's a religion of conquer and war, not to be mistaken with
 
Nov 2016
559
Germany
#44
Since I belong to the "side" which you are skeptical of, that is, to those who favor the reliability of the ´9-year-old´ hadiths, I would like to question your argument:
The question of Aisha´s marriage age has painstakingly been discussed in the thread "Aisha´s Age", see these and all the other posts:

Since I belong to the "side" which you are skeptical of, that is, to those who favor the reliability of the ´9-year-old´ hadiths, I would like to question your argument:
It seems obvious to me that the older-than-9 party in this discussion is mainly motivated either by the wish to purge Muhammad of what they think to be a flaw in his character, or, more likely, the wish to eliminate something (Aisha´s age of 9) what many Islam critiques serves as a target.
 
Apr 2018
1,562
Mythical land.
#45
Sources vary on the age of Aisha, nevertheless everyone turn their eyes on sources claiming her to be 14/17. The notion that Aisha was 7 y.o. is based on the assumption that Aisha was born after Islam, whereas some sources claim that Aisha was born 10 years before Islam for she was 100 years old when she died. That was a political marriage. People also don't know that many of the women Muhammad married were already over 50 years old, as an act of protectorate for widows.
Incorrect,only way you can deny aisha's age to be 9 is by denying she existed at all,also accepting that all islamic literature except quran is unreliable and hence incorrect.
There is nothing stronger in islamic literature compared aisha's age being 9,which is confirmed by her own narration among many others.


Brutal attacks were made on the very people who drove Muslim community out of their very own Mecca, the same people who persecuted them. It was a war with all the captives and casualties. Unlike the Christian theology of pacifist and forgiving attitude towards enemies, Muslim one is quite warlike: the well known quote of Muhammad "War is deception."The holy book of Islam orders to attack and kill them in a war before they kill you, and adds that not to accept their peace offering once they violated it.
more like meccans drove out muslims when muslims started to mock the gods of meccans,after that meccans and muslims signed peace treaty which was broken by muslims AFAIR,i may be wrong though.

The narration of Jewish persecution of Benu Kuraiza wasn't based on Islamic yet Jewish sources, acc. Islamic sources dating after the persecution Jews are mentioned to be in the very region, also no traces of holes filled hundreds of bodies to be found. Had Muhammad persecuted non-Muslims in such fashion, esp. Jews, his descendant rulers and later generation Muslim states would do the same. Yet Jewish community used to be everywhere in the Muslim world. Muslims in fact were the only ones who didn't systematically persecute Jews until late 20th century.
Can you give source for that claim?IMO the source for this story is actually islamic sirah and hadiths.

Even the one precious armour he had was lend upon pawn to a Jew. There are many anecdotes of these men protecting Jews rights. Just like the time a Jew claimed a shield or armour to be his after Ali mistakenly left it at somewhere. Before the judge, Ali provides witnesses but the judge ruled it against Ali, telling him the witnesses he provided were close companions of him, thus unreliable. Another time Muhammad stands up out of respect when he sees a dead Jew being carried for burial.
Before Islam Arabs didn't even have a state of their own. With war and religion Muhammad managed to make Arabs a nation. A few centuries later these people riding camels had navies, military and diplomacy and even attempted to capture the mighty Constantinople however they failed, not to mention they became a major threat to Byzantine, conquered Persia, invaded Iberia and captured the Mediterranean.
It's a religion of conquer and war, not to be mistaken with
Quite correct.
 

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,608
USA
#46
Violence is a characteristic of Islam, as gravity is to the matter. It was the violence that made Islam successful. When Islam was peaceful in its early years in Mecca, it was an utter failure.
 
Likes: Zanis
May 2015
1,301
Germany
#47
One year later, Muhammad's army was defeated by the Meccans in the desert. Back in Medina Muhammad abandoned all scruples and killed every non-Jewish man who did not want to convert to Islam. The families left behind were sold as slaves.
Can you recommend any literature covering the wars of Muhammad? My list so far:

  • Donner: "The Early Islamic Conquests"
  • Gabriel: "Muhammad: Islam's First Great General"
  • Jandora: "The March from Medina: A Revisionist Study of the Arab Conquests"
  • Kelsay: "Islam and War: A Study in Comparative Ethics"
  • Kennedy: "The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates"
  • Rodgers: "The Generalship of Muhammad: Battles and Campaigns of the Prophet of Allah"
 
Nov 2010
7,513
Cornwall
#49
The narration of Jewish persecution of Benu Kuraiza wasn't based on Islamic yet Jewish sources, acc. Islamic sources dating after the persecution Jews are mentioned to be in the very region, also no traces of holes filled hundreds of bodies to be found. Had Muhammad persecuted non-Muslims in such fashion, esp. Jews, his descendant rulers and later generation Muslim states would do the same. Yet Jewish community used to be everywhere in the Muslim world. Muslims in fact were the only ones who didn't systematically persecute Jews until late 20th century.
The Almohad Empire/Caliphate persecuted jews severely. They were outlawed in true Visigothic style! Funny how opposites have things in common.
 
May 2015
1,301
Germany
#50