Was Battle of 10 kings a real battle at all ?

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#31
Yes, this is possible but we need some more straws as supporting evidence. Presently, we have five disjoint pieces of evidence. They are, roughly arranged in order of age, as under:

Combined period:

(i) In Rig Ved Samhita, the gods include both - those who became the "Sura" and others who became the "Asura". So its universe could have included a combined Indo-Iranian people.

(ii) Indic speaking people were a ruling class in c. 1500-1250 BCE in Syria. While their Gods included both Suras & Asuras (Treaty document), the language was specifically Indic (Kikulli's Manual) [2]

(iii) 'Sixteen Aryan Homelands' as per Zoroastrianism literature extended from Syria till India. These are again both Iranian and Indic. [1]

Separate period:

(iv) Division between Iranian and Indic languages and religions. Compilation of RVS and Zend Avesta

(v) Modern distribution of population in Pakistan is Iranian languages to west of Indus and Indic to east of the river. Iranians people are concentrated in Iran while Indic in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh etc.

Reference

[1] Aryan Homeland, Airyana Vaeja, in the Avesta. Aryan lands and Zoroastrianism.
[2] Mitanni - Wikipedia
Who exactly were the "Sura" Gods and "Asura" Gods in Mitanni, and where do they appear in Rig Veda?

And the rest of it is of course wrong. Rig Veda was compiled long before Mitanni. The sixteen homelands of the Avestan literature came much later after Zarathustra's hymns.
 
Oct 2015
988
India
#33
Who exactly were the "Sura" Gods and "Asura" Gods in Mitanni, and where do they appear in Rig Veda?

And the rest of it is of course wrong. Rig Veda was compiled long before Mitanni. The sixteen homelands of the Avestan literature came much later after Zarathustra's hymns.
Four Vedic Gods are invoked in the Suppiluliuma (Hittite) versus Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty. They are "... the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods ..." [1] This treaty is dated to (~1375–1350 BC).[2]


Mitra is Asura:

"They [Mitra-Varuna] are asuras, and (like all asuras) wield their power through secret knowledge (māyā́), which empowers them to make the sun traverse the sky,and to obscure it with clouds." [3]

Varuna is Asura [4]

"Both Mitra and Varuna are classified as Asuras in the Rigveda (e.g. RV 5.63.3), although they are also addressed as Devas as well (e.g. RV 7.60.12).[20] Varuna, being the king of the Asuras, was adopted or made the change to a Deva after the structuring of the primordial cosmos, imposed by Indra after he defeats Vrtra. [4]


[1] Suppiluliuma (Hittite) -Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty
[2] Shattiwaza - Wikipedia
[3] Mitra (Vedic) - Wikipedia
[4] Varuna - Wikipedia
[5] Asura - Wikipedia (Asura Sura classification is complicated. Even Agni & Indra are classified as Asuras sometimes.))
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#34
Four Vedic Gods are invoked in the Suppiluliuma (Hittite) versus Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty. They are "... the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods ..." [1] This treaty is dated to (~1375–1350 BC).[2]


Mitra is Asura:

"They [Mitra-Varuna] are asuras, and (like all asuras) wield their power through secret knowledge (māyā́), which empowers them to make the sun traverse the sky,and to obscure it with clouds." [3]

Varuna is Asura [4]

"Both Mitra and Varuna are classified as Asuras in the Rigveda (e.g. RV 5.63.3), although they are also addressed as Devas as well (e.g. RV 7.60.12).[20] Varuna, being the king of the Asuras, was adopted or made the change to a Deva after the structuring of the primordial cosmos, imposed by Indra after he defeats Vrtra. [4]


[1] Suppiluliuma (Hittite) -Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty
[2] Shattiwaza - Wikipedia
[3] Mitra (Vedic) - Wikipedia
[4] Varuna - Wikipedia
[5] Asura - Wikipedia (Asura Sura classification is complicated. Even Agni & Indra are classified as Asuras sometimes.))
Ha ha ha, and so is Indra as he is mentioned as Asura too (as you rightly recognized). Asura is not a class of deities for God's sake! It has various meanings, and one of them is life giver, and while one other has a negative meaning. And so those babblers made a class of deities called Asuras:)

Those Wikipedia interpretations are written by the babblers for the gullible. They have no meaning whatsoever.
 
Oct 2015
988
India
#35
Hello @Aatreya

Yes, the references I could get have lots of information, but the formulation on Asura-Sura is not strong.

All the same, the enmity between Asuras and Devas - and their reverse alignments are in Rig Ved Samhita and Zend Avesta are clear.

How do you account for this latter?
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,835
Sydney
#36
the term of "kings " is probably given to clan leaders
in the Iliad , the Argives and Trojans with allied had kings in plenty
dark age Britain had kings for each county until some winnowing culled them to a dozen
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#37
Hello @Aatreya

Yes, the references I could get have lots of information, but the formulation on Asura-Sura is not strong.

All the same, the enmity between Asuras and Devas - and their reverse alignments are in Rig Ved Samhita and Zend Avesta are clear.

How do you account for this latter?
Rig Veda has usage of the word Asura in many different ways, and one of them means bad beings. The word Sura as Devas is non-existent in Rig Veda. Clearly Asura must not have been a cut and dry negative word. On the other hand, the Avesta seems to have considered Devas as bad right from its early stages, and there is absolutely no good connotation of the word. But surprisingly, the Avestan literature has use for yazats (yajat), fravashis(pravashi), etc.. as celestial beings, and not to forget the Ahura Mazda. It also has Verethagna (Vrtrahana) but no Indra! I can infer (whether correct or not I do not know) the following about the Vedic/Avestan people:

1. Some people called some Devas as Asuras and worshipped them by calling them as such.
2. The majority of the people worshipped Devas and used the word Asura positively and negatively.
3. As time passed, the negative meaning of Asura assumed importance while the smaller group still had only positive meaning for the word.
4. The two groups now face each other, and the smaller group realizes that Asura is spoken of negatively, and to counter it, calls the Devas bad.
5. The negative effect of Asura now compounds in the larger group and a polarity is created.

The reason Asura itself had different meanings in Rig Veda is because different root words could finally attain the same form. For example, the word chakra in Rig Veda is used in the sense of "did". However, the word chakram is used to mean "wheel" in Rig Veda. The root word of chakra is "chak", while for chakram it is "kram". But both attain almost same final form.
 
Likes: Rajeev

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#38
Four Vedic Gods are invoked in the Suppiluliuma (Hittite) versus Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty. They are "... the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods ..." [1] This treaty is dated to (~1375–1350 BC).[2]


Mitra is Asura:

"They [Mitra-Varuna] are asuras, and (like all asuras) wield their power through secret knowledge (māyā́), which empowers them to make the sun traverse the sky,and to obscure it with clouds." [3]

Varuna is Asura [4]

"Both Mitra and Varuna are classified as Asuras in the Rigveda (e.g. RV 5.63.3), although they are also addressed as Devas as well (e.g. RV 7.60.12).[20] Varuna, being the king of the Asuras, was adopted or made the change to a Deva after the structuring of the primordial cosmos, imposed by Indra after he defeats Vrtra. [4]


[1] Suppiluliuma (Hittite) -Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty
[2] Shattiwaza - Wikipedia
[3] Mitra (Vedic) - Wikipedia
[4] Varuna - Wikipedia
[5] Asura - Wikipedia (Asura Sura classification is complicated. Even Agni & Indra are classified as Asuras sometimes.))
Mitra is Aditya, and so is Varuna, and so is Indra, and so is Vishnu. Aditya is SUrya, and SUrya is Agni. Go figure where your Asuras are.

Nobody classified any deity in Rig Veda as only Deva or Asura. While we are at it, let's see what the RV hymn 5.63.3 says:

RV 5.63.3, Rshi:ArchanAnA Atreya, Devata: MitrAvarunau, Chandah: JagatI

samrAjA ugrA vrshabhA divaspatI prthivyA mitrAvarunA vicharshiNe
chitrEbhirabhrairupa tishTathO ravam dyAm varshayathO asurasya mAyayA

Meanings of words:
samrAjau: glowing completely
ugrA: those who possess terrible powers, or mighty
vrshabhA: showerers
divah: To heavens
PatI: Lords
PrthivyA: Keepers of Earth
VicharshiNI: One capable of seeing everything
MitrAvaruNA: O MitrA and VaruNa
ChitrEbhih: Attractive
Abhraih: with clouds
ravam: hear sound of our prayer
upa tishTatha: approached us
asurasya: able parjanya's
mAyayA: with the help of omniscience
dyAm: the heavens or sky
varshayathah: made to rain

Overall meaning: O completely glowing and mighty showerers, Lords of heaven and keepers of Earth, you approach Mitra and Varuna, with attractive clouds to hear the sound of your praises by us, and cause the sky to rain with the help of Power/omniscience of Parjanya.

So the question is how did Mitra and Varuna become classified as Asuras here? We do not see the meaning of the hymn to be that at all.
 
#39
Mitra is Aditya, and so is Varuna, and so is Indra, and so is Vishnu. Aditya is SUrya, and SUrya is Agni. Go figure where your Asuras are.

Nobody classified any deity in Rig Veda as only Deva or Asura. While we are at it, let's see what the RV hymn 5.63.3 says:

RV 5.63.3, Rshi:ArchanAnA Atreya, Devata: MitrAvarunau, Chandah: JagatI

samrAjA ugrA vrshabhA divaspatI prthivyA mitrAvarunA vicharshiNe
chitrEbhirabhrairupa tishTathO ravam dyAm varshayathO asurasya mAyayA

Meanings of words:
samrAjau: glowing completely
ugrA: those who possess terrible powers, or mighty
vrshabhA: showerers
divah: To heavens
PatI: Lords
PrthivyA: Keepers of Earth
VicharshiNI: One capable of seeing everything
MitrAvaruNA: O MitrA and VaruNa
ChitrEbhih: Attractive
Abhraih: with clouds
ravam: hear sound of our prayer
upa tishTatha: approached us
asurasya: able parjanya's
mAyayA: with the help of omniscience
dyAm: the heavens or sky
varshayathah: made to rain

Overall meaning: O completely glowing and mighty showerers, Lords of heaven and keepers of Earth, you approach Mitra and Varuna, with attractive clouds to hear the sound of your praises by us, and cause the sky to rain with the help of Power/omniscience of Parjanya.

So the question is how did Mitra and Varuna become classified as Asuras here? We do not see the meaning of the hymn to be that at all.
hi, is there a word ''kurta'' in sanskrit? do you have any idea about it?
 
Oct 2015
988
India
#40
Rig Veda has usage of the word Asura in many different ways, and one of them means bad beings. The word Sura as Devas is non-existent in Rig Veda. Clearly Asura must not have been a cut and dry negative word. On the other hand, the Avesta seems to have considered Devas as bad right from its early stages, and there is absolutely no good connotation of the word. But surprisingly, the Avestan literature has use for yazats (yajat), fravashis(pravashi), etc.. as celestial beings, and not to forget the Ahura Mazda. It also has Verethagna (Vrtrahana) but no Indra! I can infer (whether correct or not I do not know) the following about the Vedic/Avestan people:

1. Some people called some Devas as Asuras and worshipped them by calling them as such.
2. The majority of the people worshipped Devas and used the word Asura positively and negatively.
3. As time passed, the negative meaning of Asura assumed importance while the smaller group still had only positive meaning for the word.
4. The two groups now face each other, and the smaller group realizes that Asura is spoken of negatively, and to counter it, calls the Devas bad.
5. The negative effect of Asura now compounds in the larger group and a polarity is created.

The reason Asura itself had different meanings in Rig Veda is because different root words could finally attain the same form. For example, the word chakra in Rig Veda is used in the sense of "did". However, the word chakram is used to mean "wheel" in Rig Veda. The root word of chakra is "chak", while for chakram it is "kram". But both attain almost same final form.
Thanks @Aatreya . Here are frequencies I could locate:

"Asura" appears 56 times in RVS (Rig Ved Samhita). It is the 57th most frequent noun and is foud in all the 10 books.
"Asuras" appears 16 times in RVS. It is 150th most frequent noun.

....

"Sura" appears only 7 times in RVS. In three it may be referring to an intoxicating / energy drink.

....

I am unable to find frequency of "Deva" in RVS. But the word is part of names of at least 10 people: Visvedevas (74 times in RVS), Devapi (6), Sahadeva (5), Devavata (3), Devasravas (2), Devaka (1), Devavana (1), Sudeva (1), Suradev (1), Ugradeva (1), Vamadeva (1).