Was Battle of 10 kings a real battle at all ?

Aupmanyav

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Jun 2014
5,393
New Delhi, India
#42
Neo Vedics don't consider Puranic stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata as a real battle and see them as made up story or epic. But can't we use same Judgement for Battle of 10 kings as well ? As far as I know we don't have any proof to prove that there was a battle as stated in book 7 of Rigveda beside that book.
Puranas have more hyperbole than Vedas, but IMHO, Battle of Ten Kings seems like a historical event. It may just have been a raid by a conglomerate of some hill tribes against a settled population (fortunately thwarted by floods in River Ravi).

All Gods are mentioned as 'asuras' (meaning mighty, even Vritra) except Lord Vishnu. There is no confusion in RigVeda about 'asura'. That happened in later times.

Monier-Williams:
-- asura mfn. (2. %{as} Un2.) , spiritual , incorporeal , divine RV. AV. VS. ; m. a spirit , good spirit , supreme spirit (said of Varun2a) RV. VS. ; the chief of the evil spirits RV. ii , 30 , 4 and vii , 99 , 5 ; an evil spirit , demon , ghost , opponent of the gods RV. viii , 96 , 9 ; x AV. &c. [these Asuras are often regarded as the children of Diti by Kas3yapa see %{daitya} ; as such they are demons of the first order in perpetual hostility with the gods , and must not be confounded with the Ra1kshasas or imps who animate dead bodies and disturb sacrifices] ; a N. of Ra1hu VarBr2S. &c. ; the sun L. ; a cloud Naigh. (cf. RV. v , 83 , 6) ; (%{As}) m. pl.N. of a warrior-tribe , (g. %{parzv-Adi} , q.v.) ; of a Vedic school ; (%{A}) f. night L. ; a zodiacal sign L. ; (%{I}) f. a female demon , the wife of an Asura , KaushBr. (cf. %{AsurI} and %{mahA7surI}) ; the plant Sinapis Ramosa Roxb. L. [In later Sanskr2it %{sura} has been formed from %{asura} , as %{sita} from %{asita} q.v.]
-- Asura 1 mf(%{I})n. (fr. %{asura}) , spiritual , divine RV. VS. AV. ; belonging or devoted to evil spirits ; belonging or relating to the Asuras RV. AV. VS. Ka1tyS3r. Prab. Das3. &c. ; infernal , demoniacal ; m. an Asura or demon AV. AitBr. Pa1n2. ; a form of marriage (in which the bridegroom purchases the bride from her father and paternal kinsmen) A1s3vGr2. i , 6 , 6 Mn. iii , 31 (cf. %{vivAha}) ; (%{As}) m. pl. the stars of the southern hemisphere Su1ryas. &c. ; a prince of the warrior-tribe Asura Pa1n2. ; (%{I}) f. a female demon ; a division of medicine (surgery , curing by cutting with instruments , applying the actual cautery) ; N. of the plant Sinapis Ramosa L. ; the urethra BhP. ; (%{am}) n. blood ; black salt L. 5 Asura 2 mfn. belonging to A1suri (below).

Some of these tribes could have been from outside India, Also some of the tribes which we now take as part of Indo-Aryans could have been living on the margins at that time, Bhrigus, Matsya, etc.
Alinas: One of the tribes defeated by Sudas at the Dasarajna, and it was suggested that they lived to the north-east of Nuristan, because the land was mentioned by the Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang.
Bhalanas: Fought against Sudas in the Dasarajna battle. Some scholars have argued that the Bhalanas lived in the Bolan Pass area.
Druhyus: Some align them with the Gandhari (RV I 1.126.7).
Parsu: The Parśu have been connected by some with the ancient Persians.
Panis: Also the name of a class of demons; later associated with the Scythians.
Other tribes: Turvasas (people with home in Tur, Turkistan?), Shivas, Visanins, Anavas (7.18.14), Ajas, Sigrus (7.18.19) and the '21 men of both Vaikarna tribes (Kabul ?) who were without a king', fighting just for booty. :)
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,393
New Delhi, India
#43
The split between Indian and Iranian Aryans took place in Turan where Zoroaster was born. By that time many Aryans were already in India. That is why RigVeda does not mention the split which is so prominent in Avesta.
 

Devdas

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
4,456
India
#44
The split between Indian and Iranian Aryans took place in Turan where Zoroaster was born. By that time many Aryans were already in India. That is why RigVeda does not mention the split which is so prominent in Avesta.
But the Vedic Indians has no memory of any land beyond Afghanistan. The Indo-Iranian culture split seems to have Afghanistan as borderline, Eastern Afghanistan was Vedic while western Afghanistan was Iranian.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,393
New Delhi, India
#45
You cannot bifurcate Aryans into Indian and Iranians. They were Aryans. Those who went to Iran became Iranian Aryans and in a similar way the Indian Aryans at a later date. Iranian and Central Asian Aryans except the Zoroastrians, nearly forgot their heritage because of Islam (though they acknowledge it - Iran Airlines was known as Ariana and Shah took the title of Arya Meher), while it remained alive in India because of assimilation into Hinduism. Pakistan generally does not acknowledge even that.
 
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Aatreya

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Dec 2014
3,497
USA
#46
But the Vedic Indians has no memory of any land beyond Afghanistan. The Indo-Iranian culture split seems to have Afghanistan as borderline, Eastern Afghanistan was Vedic while western Afghanistan was Iranian.
Rig Veda was composed in a time when perhaps they had issues with dasyus, and it was composed in India. Avesta was composed later when the split happened in the Western edge of Vedic civilization. There are no Iranian or Indian Aryans. The only Aryans are Indians.
 
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Apr 2019
232
India
#47
You cannot bifurcate Aryans into Indian and Iranians.

They were Aryans. Those who went to Iran became Iranian Aryans and in a similar way the Indian Aryans at a later date.


Iranian and Central Asian Aryans except the Zoroastrians, nearly forgot their heritage because of Islam (though they acknowledge it - Iran Airlines was known as Ariana and Shah took the title of Arya Meher), while it remained alive in India because of assimilation into Hinduism. Pakistan generally does not acknowledge even that.
Both Indian and Iranian used the word Aryan but for Indian it was a cultural term but for Iranian it was racial/religious term.

Indian Aryan did not come after Iranians. It's Iranians who splitted from their roots. That's why Avesta mentions an original homeland but Vedas don't.
Avestas know many places outside Iran including 'Haptahindu'. The place has been described as 'hot' and 'hostile' but Vedic people don't mention anything outside NW India-Pakistan.
The Avestas are younger than earliest parts of Vedas. Many people find mention in both Avestas and Vedas. While in Avestas they are remembered as ancestors in Vedas they are living people.
Avestas are essentially a rebellion against Vedic religion. They have converted Devas into malevolent beings. No sane peron would place Avestas earlier than Vedas.
I think after victory of king Sudas, Indian Aryans gave credit to Devas and Indra for this feat which offended the loosing side.

Iranians still respect their roots. Many of them are crypto-Zoroastrians because of fear of punishment of apostasy. They know Islam was forced on them by Arabs who were culturally inferior to them.

Pakistan is a gone case. I've never seen a race which was this much determined to anihilate their roots.
Murdering marauder Bin Qasim is considered first Pakistani. No surprise they are selling their country to China.
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,497
USA
#48
Both Indian and Iranian used the word Aryan but for Indian it was a cultural term but for Iranian it was racial/religious term.

Indian Aryan did not come after Iranians. It's Iranians who splitted from their roots. That's why Avesta mentions an original homeland but Vedas don't.
Avestas know many places outside Iran including 'Haptahindu'. The place has been described as 'hot' and 'hostile' but Vedic people don't mention anything outside NW India-Pakistan.
The Avestas are younger than earliest parts of Vedas. Many people find mention in both Avestas and Vedas. While in Avestas they are remembered as ancestors in Vedas they are living people.
Avestas are essentially a rebellion against Vedic religion. They have converted Devas into malevolent beings. No sane peron would place Avestas earlier than Vedas.
I think after victory of king Sudas, Indian Aryans gave credit to Devas and Indra for this feat which offended the loosing side.

Iranians still respect their roots. Many of them are crypto-Zoroastrians because of fear of punishment of apostasy. They know Islam was forced on them by Arabs who were culturally inferior to them.

Pakistan is a gone case. I've never seen a race which was this much determined to anihilate their roots.
Murdering marauder Bin Qasim is considered first Pakistani. No surprise they are selling their country to China.
Who on the losing side of the battle turned to being Asura worshippers? Where is the hymn in Rig Veda related to that? I agree with your other points totally though.

For example, Trita Aptya is one of the Rishis in Rig Veda, while he is an ancestor in Avestan.
 
Mar 2013
959
Breakdancing on the Moon.
#49
Ok, to answer some linguistic questions:

Asura doesn't originally have negative conotations, it just means 'lord', which is why it is used to broadly in the earliest stratum of the texts. It gains some negative connotations in some contexts during the later period. Avestan is much more conservative in this respect.

Note, that later Indian bards seem to confuse the a as a privative pre-fix through a common linguistic tendency called analogy. So an Asura becomes one who is without -sura, in this case alcohol or perhaps the intoxicated state of the soma ritual.

Historicity of the Dasarajna Yuddha:

It seems quite probable. Either way, there is a reduction of diversity amongst later texts and rituals which suggests one strain becomes dominant, even if only for a time. Why not the Bharatas? I know scholars like Witzel like to read a historical event where the Bharatas take over and the later war between the Kauravas and the Pandavas represent two different 'houses' of the 'dynasty'.

10 tribes is a very suspect number, but on balance I find it hard to consider this to be a fantastical rather than a historical event.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,393
New Delhi, India
#50
Rig Veda was composed in a time when perhaps they had issues with dasyus, and it was composed in India.
Dasyus, as I have always said, were originally the imaginary demons of Aryans who abducted the sun during the long, cold and dark Arctic night when the Aryans lived there before the coming of ice-age. The story has its counter-parts in all IE cultures. Later the word has also been used for opponents of RigVedic Aryans. There is no mention of a major conflict between the indigenous people of India and the migrant Aryans.
Both Indian and Iranian used the word Aryan but for Indian it was a cultural term but for Iranian it was racial/religious term.
In India also, the word Aryan was racial/religious. Remember the five clans (Pancajanas).

Read about 'Trita Aptya' in the light of the theory of 'Arctic Home in Vedas' (B.G. Tilak) here:
 

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