Was it possible to hold on to Algeria north of the Atlas in 1962?

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
15,022
Europix
But the topic of a demographic threat for France refers to Muslim immigrants from all countries.
The topic of this thread isn't the threat of Muslim immigrants but France, Algeria and the Saharian part of Algeria.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,782
Sydney
The FLN thought of themselves a Partisans entitled to take food , resources and women as their rights
anyone disputing this was treated as a traitor and executed .

the local tribal chief totally rejected this dismissal of their customary authority

the same happened in Afghanistan when Al Qaeda operatives got into conflict with the local Taliban chiefs
or in Chechnia when Islamist foreigners were bossing around locals above the head of traditional leaders
the Chechen grand mufti switched to Russia side and got assassinated , his son Ramzan Kadyrov is the present leader
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
24,516
SoCal
The topic of this thread isn't the threat of Muslim immigrants but France, Algeria and the Saharian part of Algeria.
But France withdrew from Algeria in part due to the demographic threat that Algerian Muslims posed.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
24,516
SoCal
The FLN thought of themselves a Partisans entitled to take food , resources and women as their rights
anyone disputing this was treated as a traitor and executed .

the local tribal chief totally rejected this dismissal of their customary authority

the same happened in Afghanistan when Al Qaeda operatives got into conflict with the local Taliban chiefs
or in Chechnia when Islamist foreigners were bossing around locals above the head of traditional leaders
the Chechen grand mufti switched to Russia side and got assassinated , his son Ramzan Kadyrov is the present leader
That makes sense. BTW, I've also previously heard that the FLN assassinated its own more moderate members who advocated in favor of a more conciliatory strategy and attitude towards France as being insufficiently hardcore and due to them undermining the official FLN line. Is this correct?
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
15,022
Europix
But France withdrew from Algeria in part due to the demographic threat that Algerian Muslims posed.
It can be looked at that way.

IMO, de Gaulle, not France withdrew from Algeria.

The Algerian demographic was only a part of the causes, not necessarily the most important.

The most important cause was France, better said, the idea of France de Gaulle défended since 1940: it was "LA FRANCE", its history, its Christianity, its Europeanes, its status, culture, image, glory.

Trying to keep Algeria, from a certain point became dangerous for France's image and status too, so de Gaulle went against a lot of French and dropped Algeria.

IMHO, it was right for the second time in his career.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
24,516
SoCal
It can be looked at that way.

IMO, de Gaulle, not France withdrew from Algeria.

The Algerian demographic was only a part of the causes, not necessarily the most important.

The most important cause was France, better said, the idea of France de Gaulle défended since 1940: it was "LA FRANCE", its history, its Christianity, its Europeanes, its status, culture, image, glory.

Trying to keep Algeria, from a certain point became dangerous for France's image and status too, so de Gaulle went against a lot of French and dropped Algeria.

IMHO, it was right for the second time in his career.
Yes, that certainly makes sense. That said, though, it's worth noting that de Gaulel did, in fact, explicitly invoke demographics on at least one occasion as a justification for having France withdraw from Algeria:


"In English translation:

It is very good that there are yellow French, black French, brown French. They show that France is open to all races and has a universal vocation. But [it is good] on condition that they remain a small minority. Otherwise, France would no longer be France. We are still primarily a European people of the white race, Greek and Latin culture, and the Christian religion.

Don’t tell me stories! Muslims, have you gone to see them? Have you watched them with their turbans and jellabiyas? You can see that they are not French! Those who advocate integration have the brain of a hummingbird. Try to mix oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. After a second, they will separate again.

Arabs are Arabs, the French are French. Do you think the French body politic can absorb ten million Muslims, who tomorrow will be twenty million, after tomorrow forty? If we integrated, if all the Arabs and Berbers of Algeria were considered French, would you prevent them to settle in France, where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombey-The-Two-Churches but Colombey-The-Two-Mosques."

You're correct that these factors are intertwined, though. After all, France was historically Christian but would no longer be able to remain that way if it would have kept Algeria and given full voting rights (so, no gerrymandering) to Algeria's entire and rapidly growing Muslim population. Likewise, France would no longer be a European country if almost half of its total population would have lived outside of Europe in the long(er)-run.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,782
Sydney
I've also previously heard that the FLN assassinated its own more moderate members who advocated in favor of a more conciliatory strategy and attitude towards France as being insufficiently hardcore and due to them undermining the official FLN line. Is this correct?
Yes there was some of that ,partly ordered , partly personal grudges , partly ambition of course
but the French counter-intelligence had a great success with the "boiler suits" operation
( this unit was wearing boiler suits during interrogations to avoid the trouble of blood splash on their uniforms )
one officer had a young female student arrested , taking her in his office for a chat first , he shortly left on some pretext
the girl immediately looked through the papers on his desk , there was fresh information on a guerrilla group listed as coming from a traitor

the French officer came back and told the girl it was a mistake and she could go ....it was a set up ,there was no traitor
the girl straight away went to the guerrilla and told its commander what she had seen ,
he had her tortured to death to check her story , she was telling the truth as she believed
he started torturing people to find the traitor , under extreme pressure people tell anything and they confessed , named names , named anything and anyone
the whole FLN guerrillas went into a paranoid frenzy of suspicion , torturing by lists of names which gave them more names for more lists

that's a classic case of the futility of torture , unless done with great care and critical thinking it turn into a frenzied madness

finally it ended when some headquarters refused to believe this crap and the whole thing stopped ,
hundreds of guerrillas had been eliminated by their own and all operations against French targets had been suspended for months
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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SoCal
Yes there was some of that ,partly ordered , partly personal grudges , partly ambition of course
but the French counter-intelligence had a great success with the "boiler suits" operation
( this unit was wearing boiler suits during interrogations to avoid the trouble of blood splash on their uniforms )
one officer had a young female student arrested , taking her in his office for a chat first , he shortly left on some pretext
the girl immediately looked through the papers on his desk , there was fresh information on a guerrilla group listed as coming from a traitor

the French officer came back and told the girl it was a mistake and she could go ....it was a set up ,there was no traitor
the girl straight away went to the guerrilla and told its commander what she had seen ,
he had her tortured to death to check her story , she was telling the truth as she believed
he started torturing people to find the traitor , under extreme pressure people tell anything and they confessed , named names , named anything and anyone
the whole FLN guerrillas went into a paranoid frenzy of suspicion , torturing by lists of names which gave them more names for more lists

that's a classic case of the futility of torture , unless done with great care and critical thinking it turn into a frenzied madness

finally it ended when some headquarters refused to believe this crap and the whole thing stopped ,
hundreds of guerrillas had been eliminated by their own and all operations against French targets had been suspended for months
When did all of this occur? It's a very interesting story and I want to read more about it.