Was Jesus Christ a historical person?

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
I find your level of agitation over this issue telling.

Why does this bother you so much?
It aleays bothers me when nonsense is touted as fact, like when some try to insist the schools teach the earth is only 5,000 years old and was created on October 4 9am. Why should it matter if it we allow that to be taught in schools?

But you are right, it should be just laughed off with a shrug, and ignored.
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,319
Seattle
It aleays bothers me when nonsense is touted as fact, like when some try to insist the schools teach the earth is only 5,000 years old and was created on October 4 9am. Why should it matter if it we allow that to be taught in schools?

But you are right, it should be just laughed off with a shrug, and ignored.
I find the idea that the cult of Jesus was originally the cult of Julius Caesar being taught in schools somewhat remote for the foreseeable future.

But I can somewhat understand how you feel, like when people spout nonsense like Paulos was originally someone named Saul from Tarsus and was a tent maker. What ignorant tosh, anyone who can read can plainly see that Paulos most likely is from Damascus. Where do people come up with that garbage I wonder? :notrust:

Anyway, even though I personally think it unlikely that the Jesus cult was originally the Julius cult I keep an open mind and read what Magus has to say on the subject as he presents some interesting material and his treatment of the two as one may give some insights into the bigger picture.

My 2 cents.
 

abram

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
2,124
oklahoma
I find the idea that the cult of Jesus was originally the cult of Julius Caesar being taught in schools somewhat remote for the foreseeable future.

But I can somewhat understand how you feel, like when people spout nonsense like Paulos was originally someone named Saul from Tarsus and was a tent maker. What ignorant tosh, anyone who can read can plainly see that Paulos most likely is from Damascus. Where do people come up with that garbage I wonder? :notrust:

Anyway, even though I personally think it unlikely that the Jesus cult was originally the Julius cult I keep an open mind and read what Magus has to say on the subject as he presents some interesting material and his treatment of the two as one may give some insights into the bigger picture.

My 2 cents.
I think Paulos was supposed to have been born in Tarsus. He probably was a resident of Damascus. Nothing strange about that. Open mind for Magus? Postmodernism in action! Alternative facts, yes!
 

abram

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
2,124
oklahoma
What do you base this on?

I am really curious.
Well Acts 9:11, of course. Notice I said "supposed". Also Eisenman, who tells us that Saul's father, probably Timius of Cyprus, a rich Jewish merchant, spent a lot of time in Tarsus, the capital of Cilicia. Notice that "Tarsus" and "Timius" both start with the letter "T", and that "Cilicia" and "Christian" start with the letter "C'. So do "Caesar", "Cleopatra" and the Magna Mater Cybelle, who originated in Cilicia. Cilicia was the home of the Cilician pirates. Pirates starts with the letter "P". So does Paul, who tells us he was subjected to the "perils of the sea", which could include pirates (Cor. 11:26). Pirates is also the name of a baseball team in Pittsburgh. Hmm. I think we may be on to something!







 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
842
Crete
You mention fake history, then you contradict yourself by quoting the Book of Acts, Just because history doesn't agree with biblical narratives does not make it fake.

The Temple of Solomon as never being found or proven to have existed, what is standing in the Old City of Jerusalem are relics of Roman temples, so why are people convinced the western wall it literally the temple of Solomon.

Epigraphy shows the real history, , take Jordan, Petra as a good example,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra

A Greek temple carved out of a sandstone rock face, adorned with Castor and Pollux and dancing Amazons.


That is the real history and it's that history that being suppressed by biased biblical archaeologists, what do they do when they dig up
Greek temples and relics, brush them aside?
 
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Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,319
Seattle
Well Acts 9:11, of course.
Ah, yes! Acts! Of course!

Well, it must be true, I mean just look at how accurate the accounts of Paul are in Acts as opposed to Paul's own accounts of himself. I mean it's not as if the writer of Acts is just making things up to create some sort of theological narrative right?

Just in case though lets look at how the writer of Acts handles the subject.

The conversion of Saul to Paul in Acts takes place on the island of Cyprus during a confrontation between Saul and the Jewish sorcerer Bar Jesus, between Acts 13:1 and 13:13.

In the account, with the invitation of Sergius Paulus, the leading Roman official on the island, Saul and his fellow apostle Barnabas present the Gospel to him but are opposed by the spiritual advisor of Sergius, Bar Jesus.
At this point, in Acts 13:9-10, the author of Acts writes “Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?” Saul then strikes Bar Jesus temporarily blind thus convincing the proconsul Sergius Paulus of the truth of the Gospel.

From Acts 13:13 on Saul is now referred to only as Paul.

It’s notable that right after Saul becomes Paul in Acts 13:13 we have Paul speaking in the synagogue at Pisidian Antioch where Paul says at Acts 13:21-23: “Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’ From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”

That the author of Acts is making a comparison between Saul of Tarsus and King Saul seems very likely and may be why Paul was given the name Saul by the author in the first place.

1: King Saul is replaced as King by David and never finds God. Jesus is descended from David and Saul of Tarsus does find God.

2: King Saul tries to kill David and is deposed and then kills himself. Saul of Tarsus persecutes the Church of God but converts to Jesus, the descendant of David, and now will have everlasting life.

3: Saul is a King. Paul is “small” or “humble”?

Plenty of meat on that bone.

King Saul, of the tribe of Benjamin, is only mentioned in the New Testament once, Acts 13:21-22, right after Saul of Tarsus, of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1 and Philippians 3:5), becomes Paul.

While the character of Saul in Acts is an obvious literary construct and the Paul in Acts more than a little implausible, the man who wrote the letters that bear the name Paulos, on the other hand, is very real and completely at odds with the account given in the fictional story of Acts.

Further, it should be noted that modern scholarship is taking seriously the contention that the pastoral letters once thought to have been written by Paul were probably actually written by the author of Luke/Acts to continue the author’s rewrite of history and fulfill a desired narrative.

We really have 0 reason to trust the writer of Acts about anything.
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,319
Seattle
Well Acts 9:11, of course. Notice I said "supposed". Also Eisenman, who tells us that Saul's father, probably Timius of Cyprus, a rich Jewish merchant, spent a lot of time in Tarsus, the capital of Cilicia. Notice that "Tarsus" and "Timius" both start with the letter "T", and that "Cilicia" and "Christian" start with the letter "C'. So do "Caesar", "Cleopatra" and the Magna Mater Cybelle, who originated in Cilicia. Cilicia was the home of the Cilician pirates. Pirates starts with the letter "P". So does Paul, who tells us he was subjected to the "perils of the sea", which could include pirates (Cor. 11:26). Pirates is also the name of a baseball team in Pittsburgh. Hmm. I think we may be on to something!







It blows my mind that you would paint Magus as some kind of nut job and yet site Eisenman, an author with 0 credibility in scholarly circles who does exactly what you accuse Magus of.
 

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