Was Jesus Christ a historical person?

Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,959
Iowa USA
It blows my mind that you would paint Magus as some kind of nut job and yet site Eisenman, an author with 0 credibility in scholarly circles who does exactly what you accuse Magus of.
You might be over your skis here Jax?

Without body language or voice intonation it is not possible for me to know at what part of abram's post the transition to "unadulterated sarcasm" began. It might have started with the reference to that scholar with a reputation for imagination.

However.... regarding the "meat on the bone" of Saul/Paul, I am experiencing a little dissonance between the idea that Paulos had founded an organization for people living in the Greek culture and the importance of the stories in 1 and 2 Samuel to the writing of Acts? If the primary missionaries of Paul's "true Christianity" were part of the Greek culture I can't see how the story of Saul in 1 Samuel would be a **central** theme in Acts?

If the Paul movement was always gentile, including the missionaries coming up after his first circle of followers (who are mentioned in the 7 epistles which you accept as historical evidence), there's some dissonance around the importance of the Saul story.

Or as a noted 20th century thinker once said: "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Paul had a nickname because he was physically unimpressive among the Greeks, but his given name was Saul. (Occam's razor.)
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,347
Seattle
You might be over your skis here Jax?

Without body language or voice intonation it is not possible for me to know at what part of abram's post the transition to "unadulterated sarcasm" began. It might have started with the reference to that scholar with a reputation for imagination.

However.... regarding the "meat on the bone" of Saul/Paul, I am experiencing a little dissonance between the idea that Paulos had founded an organization for people living in the Greek culture and the importance of the stories in 1 and 2 Samuel to the writing of Acts? If the primary missionaries of Paul's "true Christianity" were part of the Greek culture I can't see how the story of Saul in 1 Samuel would be a **central** theme in Acts?

If the Paul movement was always gentile, including the missionaries coming up after his first circle of followers (who are mentioned in the 7 epistles which you accept as historical evidence), there's some dissonance around the importance of the Saul story.

Or as a noted 20th century thinker once said: "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Paul had a nickname because he was physically unimpressive among the Greeks, but his given name was Saul. (Occam's razor.)
Ask yourself this; why is Saul/Paul only Saul right up to the point in Acts that Deals with King Saul but then only Paul from then on out?
 

Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,959
Iowa USA
Ask yourself this; why is Saul/Paul only Saul right up to the point in Acts that Deals with King Saul but then only Paul from then on out?
This question does nothing to resolve my dissonance.

Please either correct my misconception of your understanding of the Paul's church or explain to me how these Thessalonian/Attican/Macedonian urban people "learned to care" about Saul's arc from 1 Samuel.

Maybe you will find that more direct wording to be more comprehensible! :cool:
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,347
Seattle
This question does nothing to resolve my dissonance.

Please either correct my misconception of your understanding of the Paul's church or explain to me how these Thessalonian/Attican/Macedonian urban people "learned to care" about Saul's arc from 1 Samuel.

Maybe you will find that more direct wording to be more comprehensible! :cool:
It's pretty clear from what they were writing that the NT writers were heavily data mining the Greek LXX as well as Greek versions of other Jewish writings. As one might expect from Romans and Greeks investing themselves in a cult based on Jewish writings.

Paul told them himself that Jesus was to be found in personal revelation and clues found in the Torah=Greek LXX.
 
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Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,347
Seattle
^ This brings up a good point BTW. The fact that we have so much written material (far outstripping the written material of any other cult in the ancient world) in early Christianity should be a really great indication that Christianity in it's early stages was a cult based on literacy.

It should be no surprise then that the groups that Paul was writing to were colonies of ex Roman solders; the most literate group outside of the upper classes existing in the ancient world.
 
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Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,959
Iowa USA
It's pretty clear from what they were writing that the NT writers were heavily data mining the Greek LXX as well as Greek versions of other Jewish writings. As one might expect from Romans and Greeks investing themselves in a cult based on Jewish writings.

Paul told them himself that Jesus was to be found in personal revelation and clues found in the Torah=Greek LXX.
I am not sure I understand that last sentence. Paul said that he was taken bodily to the Third Heaven. There's nothing I see in 2 Corinthians to suggest that the means of revelation which he passed through would be a part of the experience of his followers.

Rather, in Colossians and 1 Corinthians he sets expectations for the church.
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,347
Seattle
I am not sure I understand that last sentence. Paul said that he was taken bodily to the Third Heaven. There's nothing I see in 2 Corinthians to suggest that the means of revelation which he passed through would be a part of the experience of his followers.

Rather, in Colossians and 1 Corinthians he sets expectations for the church.
Actually Paul says "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows." 2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

Also Colossians was probably written by someone else much later.

As for your other question...

1: "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being." Galatians 1 NIV

2: "Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" 1 Corinthians 4 NIV

3: For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." 1 Corinthians 15 NIV

4: "We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.”a For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope." Romans 15 NIV

Now #3, 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 might possibly be a later interpolation by someone else. This article https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html deals with that.
 

Kotromanic

Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
4,959
Iowa USA
Thanks for that clarification on "whether it was in the body".

Since I don't understand much of Plato's metaphysics concerning transportation of a soul between earth and the heavens it is a distinction with little difference for my understanding. I DO think that Greek/Macedonian/Thracian converts would appreciate that the experience that Paul had in revelation was a fearful experience. Neither would he have recommended that they seek the experience nor would it have been sought by them.

So while we aren't disagreeing, my emphasis is that Paul's repetitive vouching for his authority as greater than leadership of the Jerusalem church tends to make the description of experiencing the heavens as a part of history that sets him apart from his followers.

This is reply to a statement I read you make that Jesus Christ may be experienced by revelation. No. Rather the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians shows a very practical vision of the "transaction" that believers should have in a corporate or communal existence.
 

Jax

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
6,347
Seattle
I DO think that Greek/Macedonian/Thracian converts would appreciate that the experience that Paul had in revelation was a fearful experience. Neither would he have recommended that they seek the experience nor would it have been sought by them.
Why do you think this? 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 says "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

All of these activities were so common with the people that he writes to that he needs to set up ground rules to keep things from getting out of hand. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14&version=NIV