Was Kublai Khan one of main reasons of eventual downfall of Mongolia?

Dec 2015
64
Coruscant
#1
Could Mongolia survive or at lest faired better if not for decision of Kublai Khan to move center of power from Mongolia to China?
 
#3
Could Mongolia survive or at lest faired better if not for decision of Kublai Khan to move center of power from Mongolia to China?
It was my impression that the real problem was too large a ruling dynasty and too large and varied an empire. Over the course of the 13th century the Mongol Empire appears to have descended into disunity and civil war between different brothers and cousins and their different constituents under their control. As early as the last years of Genghis's reign is that disunity apparent. The division of the empire between Khublai, the Ilkhanate, the Chagatai and the Golden Horde seems like a natural progression to me.
 
Dec 2015
64
Coruscant
#4
No, because after the Yuan collapsed, the Mongol ruling class went back to the Mongolian steppes. It survived another few centuries before the Qing wiped out the Dzhungars.
Nah, I believe Yuan would have collapsed anyway. I'm more talking that all the riches and spoils were coming to China instead of Mongolia. They could at least invest into their own homeland if not for Kublai.

It was my impression that the real problem was too large a ruling dynasty and too large and varied an empire. Over the course of the 13th century the Mongol Empire appears to have descended into disunity and civil war between different brothers and cousins and their different constituents under their control. As early as the last years of Genghis's reign is that disunity apparent. The division of the empire between Khublai, the Ilkhanate, the Chagatai and the Golden Horde seems like a natural progression to me.
Yes. of course. Desintigration of Mongol Empire into smaller states was uninventable. But I was rather taling about survival. With Golden Horde it's clear to me. Tohtamysh shouldn't had messed with Tamerlane. But what about Kublai? If he didn't relocate center of power to Beijing from Karakorum, could Mongolia faired better after fall of Yuan?
 
Oct 2013
14,075
Europix
#5
... I'm more talking that all the riches and spoils were coming to China instead of Mongolia. They could at least invest into their own homeland if not for Kublai. ...
Wouldn't change that much.

... But what about Kublai? If he didn't relocate center of power to Beijing from Karakorum, could Mongolia faired better after fall of Yuan?
I don't think that either.

Mongolia's problem wasn't Kublai, but it's geography (still is, BTW).

A landlocked place, harsh environment, few ressources, it's difficult to keep a big power on such a base.
 
Feb 2018
205
US
#6
Nah, I believe Yuan would have collapsed anyway. I'm more talking that all the riches and spoils were coming to China instead of Mongolia. They could at least invest into their own homeland if not for Kublai.


Yes. of course. Desintigration of Mongol Empire into smaller states was uninventable. But I was rather taling about survival. With Golden Horde it's clear to me. Tohtamysh shouldn't had messed with Tamerlane. But what about Kublai? If he didn't relocate center of power to Beijing from Karakorum, could Mongolia faired better after fall of Yuan?

This has been noted in scholarly papers (i,e https://www.jstor.org/stable/27756097?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents ) : the Yuan and Ilkhanate didn't really decline, they simply ended abruptly, and the nomadic Mongol khanates held out much longer (though they heavily declined). Kublai's policies did cause a lot of problems for native Mongols, and while Marco Polo records that Mongol warriors stationed in China were rotated back to Mongolia to toughen up, later Yuan dynasty records show that Mongolia was really suffering.

The unexpected issue was that all of the effort put into improving China was ruined by the severe natural disasters and plagues in early-mid 14th century China. This led to catastrophic loss of life, upheaval, and banditry. The state economy was hurt trying to salvage this, and the unrest and poor conditions later led to mass rebellion. Other major problems included severe instability in the Yuan ruling line, with a period of 8 emperors within 25 years (alcohol and poor lifestyle likely played a role here). But the deprivation of Mongolia definitely played a big role in being unable to stabilize the dynasty in the face of adversity: the last emperor Toghon Temur fired Toqtogha right before he stamped out the rebellion, his one skilled and loyal minister/general, the emperor had no elite, loyal corps of Mongol warriors that he could call on to suppress the rebellions that exploded everywhere after Toqtogha was dismissed. I've always wondered why his moronic wife, who engineered the downfall of Toghtoa and thus ruined the last hope of the Yuan, was not more reviled in Chinese history. But even Toqtogha's loyal army was mostly Chinese, not Mongol.
 

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