Was life for the Bosniaks, Croats, and Slovenes better inside of Austria-Hungary or inside of Yugoslavia?

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,693
Republika Srpska
#11
Well, first question: would Serbia be a part of the Austrian or of the Hungarian part of the Empire. Geography dictates it should be part of the Hungarian part, however there was a lot of bad blood between Serbs and Hungarians. Austrian part? Maybe, but then I assume Hungary would protest because they would be surrounded on three sides by Austrian lands. Also, would the Serb population even accept such a union when they had just fought brutal wars for independence against the Ottomans. I highly doubt they would like the idea of just switching foreign rulers.
 
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Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,526
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#12
I am certain @Shtajerc will be able to provide more details for that.
Well, there is no serious movement or anything, nor is it a popular idea. There is no nostalgia or terribly positive feelings for the days of A-H, probably because noone remembers it anymore, unlike Yugoslavia. There are a few people in the Eastern half of the country that say it should split away from the rest of Slovenia and become part of Austria because the economic situation is better there and Ljubljana doesn't really care much for the rest of the country, which is getting more and more centralised. People in Ljubljana sometimes unironically call the rest of the country the "province". Even my dad said a couple of times "split us along the borders of the old duchies, we'd do better as part of Austria". Idk how serious he is, probably not all too much. I know a few who are. But they work in Austria as well. Except for some extreme natiobalistic elements, I doubt Austria even wants Slovene Styria as some parts of it lack development even ehen compared to the Slovene average, the more East you go the worse it is. It would be all teouble no gain for them. On the other hand the reality is such that people in Slovene Carinthia have an easier time to move across the border, get a house and job than to deal with our birocracy and be "the ass of the world" as far as their position and connection to the rest of the country ... A-H though, no, I don't think any Slovene with a wee bit of sense supports a revival of something like that.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,884
SoCal
#13
Well, first question: would Serbia be a part of the Austrian or of the Hungarian part of the Empire. Geography dictates it should be part of the Hungarian part, however there was a lot of bad blood between Serbs and Hungarians. Austrian part? Maybe, but then I assume Hungary would protest because they would be surrounded on three sides by Austrian lands. Also, would the Serb population even accept such a union when they had just fought brutal wars for independence against the Ottomans. I highly doubt they would like the idea of just switching foreign rulers.
What about creating a separate South Slav crown and federal unit that will include Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,884
SoCal
#14
Well, there is no serious movement or anything, nor is it a popular idea. There is no nostalgia or terribly positive feelings for the days of A-H, probably because noone remembers it anymore, unlike Yugoslavia. There are a few people in the Eastern half of the country that say it should split away from the rest of Slovenia and become part of Austria because the economic situation is better there and Ljubljana doesn't really care much for the rest of the country, which is getting more and more centralised. People in Ljubljana sometimes unironically call the rest of the country the "province". Even my dad said a couple of times "split us along the borders of the old duchies, we'd do better as part of Austria". Idk how serious he is, probably not all too much. I know a few who are. But they work in Austria as well. Except for some extreme natiobalistic elements, I doubt Austria even wants Slovene Styria as some parts of it lack development even ehen compared to the Slovene average, the more East you go the worse it is. It would be all teouble no gain for them. On the other hand the reality is such that people in Slovene Carinthia have an easier time to move across the border, get a house and job than to deal with our birocracy and be "the ass of the world" as far as their position and connection to the rest of the country ... A-H though, no, I don't think any Slovene with a wee bit of sense supports a revival of something like that.
Interesting point about no one remember A-H anymore. A-H broke up 101 years ago, so anyone with memories of it would be 105+ right now.

BTW, why is the Slovenian east relatively backwards?
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,526
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#15
Interesting point about no one remember A-H anymore. A-H broke up 101 years ago, so anyone with memories of it would be 105+ right now.

BTW, why is the Slovenian east relatively backwards?
It's true, the more East you go, the less jobs there are, people earn less and the general health of the people is worse.

Prekmurje (the head portion in the far east, if you imagine Slovenia is shaped like a chicken) was always a marginalised rural area because it has no big cities and was the very border region both in Hungary and later in Slovenia. Good land for farming, but regular droughts make it difficult, as the further east you go, the less rain you get (in the west you get a lot more rain, but the karst terrain makes the water often unaccessible because it's underground). When Austria got Bad Radkersburg/Radgona after ww1, the connection to Prekmurje was basically severed as there was the only bridge across the Mura river. Had to build new railway lines and bridges to Prekmurje in the 1920s. In times of communism some industry was set up in Prekmurje, but not much. The Maribor area was more developped in terms of industry already before ww1 and even more after ww2, but they faced a bit of a problem when they (mostly the farmers) lost the market in Austrian Styria (Graz) and Vienna. Both regions suffered the most after the independence in 1991, when the Yugoslav market was pretty much gone, yet they weren't that competitive with the west. A lot of firms went bankrupt in the 90s, which saw the end of the TAM auto industry in Maribor among others. Maribor was hit especially hard, the Celje area less so, which still shows today. Then the last economic crisis came and even more firms went down, the clothing company Mura from Prekmurje is a "famous" example of that. The centralisation of the country doesn't help either and you have many Styrians and prople from Prekmurje, who have to drive to the capital for work because there is none where they live, but many don't move because the prices of housing in Ljubljana are a lot higher. Prekmurje and the areas around and north of Maribor is also where a lot of Slovenes drive daily to Austria for work. Even doing a less qualified job makes them earn much more money than the same job would in Slovenia. Today Maribor is kind of the Leipzig of Slovenia, if that makes sense. Anti Central Slovene sentiment, a lot more far right elements than in the rest of the country, strong complex of being the second largest city ... There might also be other reasons, but this is all I can think of for now.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,884
SoCal
#16
Thanks for this information, Shtajerc! :)

BTW, were Slovenes shocked at the amount of corruption that Yugoslavia had? Based on the Corruption Perception Index, Slovenia is much less corrupt than the other ex-Yugoslav countries--with Croatia being the only other ex-Yugoslav country that comes within 10 points of Slovenia on this index:



Was this also true back when Yugoslavia still existed or were things different back then?
 
Nov 2016
82
Serbia
#17
Regarding claims in opening post - Yugoslavia was not an empire and A-H was pseudoempire.

Also, Slovenes and Croats WERE dominant in Yugoslavia, particularly in the second, communist one.

Both first and second Yugoslavias were refuge for them after defeats, and both Slovenes and Croats benefited from Yugoslavia a lot.

But do not expact Croats or Slovenes to admit this - that would contradict official national mythologies of these proud banana republics.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,526
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#18
Thanks for this information, Shtajerc! :)

BTW, were Slovenes shocked at the amount of corruption that Yugoslavia had? Based on the Corruption Perception Index, Slovenia is much less corrupt than the other ex-Yugoslav countries--with Croatia being the only other ex-Yugoslav country that comes within 10 points of Slovenia on this index:



Was this also true back when Yugoslavia still existed or were things different back then?
I somehow missed your post, so pardon my late reply.

Again, I can't speak from personal experience because I wasn't born in Yugoslavia, so my only source are stories I heard from friends and family and the portrayals of life in Yugoslavia I have seen in movies and such.

I don't think Slovenes were all too shocked or pit off by the corruption. Once you know the game, you play it. You got things done with corruption (or not done, if that's the interest) and would be crazy to not do so, if everyone else does. I worked one summer with a guy who was in the army in Varaždin, which is just across the border with Croatia and not that far from where the man is from, perhaps a 3 hour drive with a bus (idk how the train connections are to there). He got to go home from the army every weekend, but therefor he had to bring his officer a bottle of schnapps every week. His whole village knew and neighbours and other villagers would give him schnapps for the officer, so he could keep on coming home for the weekends.

In the factories workers would buy themselves clothing on the comoany's cost, you'd have to pairs of licence plates so you can drive each day (because of gas shortages in Europe at the time you could by law drive only every second day, depending on whether your licence plate number ends with an even or an odd number), people would steel materials to build their own houses, they'd smuggle coffee, jeans and various other things from Italy and Austria. You just had to play the system back then. Then life was good for you and easier. Going to work in Germany, coming back like a "boss". The UDBA itself did a lot of illegal stuff likr smuggling cigarettes into Italy to get money for their operations. Slovenes were no exception to this, if anything, they did it even more, because they were the closest to the borders with the West. People then got the mentality of "don't worry, you're just stealing from Belgrade, so you don't really hurt yourself". Some of this goes back to the times of Austria-Hungary: if it isn't really your country, it won't hurt if you cheat it a little.

Even today, your grandma will bring something homemade for her doctor as a "gift". This way she'll get put through to a specialist or get the x-ray scan done quicker. It's a form of corruption many people forget about, but daily life is full of such greassing of the wheels.

I think the differences between Slovenia and further South aren't that big in this regard, nor do I think there's really that much less corruption in the West. They just do it differently and dress it up as something else. In Slovenia you won't be stopped by a cop on the road and get a ticket for some BS, then saying "but I only have 20 Eur with me, can't we fix something?" and the cop will forget about the fine, while in Bosnia or Serbia this can happen, especially if you have a foreign licence plate. Interestingly enough I only ever had this experienced on the Austrian border 3 years back when the Austrian border guard asked me to pay him 100 Eur for letting me cross the border, because my ID card expired a month ago and I didn't notice. I refused and returned home ...

Not long ago I heard a joke that illustrates some of this. A Serb and a Croat die and they get the chance to chose to which hell they'll go: the EU hell, where you have to eat a teaspoon of sh*t every morning, or the Balkan hell, where you have to eat a wheelbarrow of sh*t every day. The Croat says, you know, we're civilized, I want to be with other civilized people, Croatia isn't Balkan anyway, so I choose the EU hell. I'll manage that teaspoon of sh*t. The Serb says, screw it, Balkan is the heart of Serbia, we guys must stick together. I'm choosing Balkan Hell. A week or so passes and the two guys meet each other again. How is EU hell, asks the Serb. The Croat says it's very cultured and all, everything is working like it's supposed to, but that teaspoon of sh*t every morning is driving him crazy since he can't get rid of the taste afterwards and so on. He can't imagine how miserable the Serb must be for eating a whole wheelbarrow every day. But the Serb says he's having a great time actually, drinking, eating and that there's no sh*t at all. The Croat asks him how this can be and the Serb says, you know things are in the Balkans, one day there are no wheelbarrows, the other day there is no sh*t, the third day we have no pitchforks to load the sh*t, so we never come so far to actually eat it.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,884
SoCal
#19
I somehow missed your post, so pardon my late reply.

Again, I can't speak from personal experience because I wasn't born in Yugoslavia, so my only source are stories I heard from friends and family and the portrayals of life in Yugoslavia I have seen in movies and such.

I don't think Slovenes were all too shocked or pit off by the corruption. Once you know the game, you play it. You got things done with corruption (or not done, if that's the interest) and would be crazy to not do so, if everyone else does. I worked one summer with a guy who was in the army in Varaždin, which is just across the border with Croatia and not that far from where the man is from, perhaps a 3 hour drive with a bus (idk how the train connections are to there). He got to go home from the army every weekend, but therefor he had to bring his officer a bottle of schnapps every week. His whole village knew and neighbours and other villagers would give him schnapps for the officer, so he could keep on coming home for the weekends.

In the factories workers would buy themselves clothing on the comoany's cost, you'd have to pairs of licence plates so you can drive each day (because of gas shortages in Europe at the time you could by law drive only every second day, depending on whether your licence plate number ends with an even or an odd number), people would steel materials to build their own houses, they'd smuggle coffee, jeans and various other things from Italy and Austria. You just had to play the system back then. Then life was good for you and easier. Going to work in Germany, coming back like a "boss". The UDBA itself did a lot of illegal stuff likr smuggling cigarettes into Italy to get money for their operations. Slovenes were no exception to this, if anything, they did it even more, because they were the closest to the borders with the West. People then got the mentality of "don't worry, you're just stealing from Belgrade, so you don't really hurt yourself". Some of this goes back to the times of Austria-Hungary: if it isn't really your country, it won't hurt if you cheat it a little.

Even today, your grandma will bring something homemade for her doctor as a "gift". This way she'll get put through to a specialist or get the x-ray scan done quicker. It's a form of corruption many people forget about, but daily life is full of such greassing of the wheels.

I think the differences between Slovenia and further South aren't that big in this regard, nor do I think there's really that much less corruption in the West. They just do it differently and dress it up as something else. In Slovenia you won't be stopped by a cop on the road and get a ticket for some BS, then saying "but I only have 20 Eur with me, can't we fix something?" and the cop will forget about the fine, while in Bosnia or Serbia this can happen, especially if you have a foreign licence plate. Interestingly enough I only ever had this experienced on the Austrian border 3 years back when the Austrian border guard asked me to pay him 100 Eur for letting me cross the border, because my ID card expired a month ago and I didn't notice. I refused and returned home ...
Very interesting stories and explanations! :)

Not long ago I heard a joke that illustrates some of this. A Serb and a Croat die and they get the chance to chose to which hell they'll go: the EU hell, where you have to eat a teaspoon of sh*t every morning, or the Balkan hell, where you have to eat a wheelbarrow of sh*t every day. The Croat says, you know, we're civilized, I want to be with other civilized people, Croatia isn't Balkan anyway, so I choose the EU hell. I'll manage that teaspoon of sh*t. The Serb says, screw it, Balkan is the heart of Serbia, we guys must stick together. I'm choosing Balkan Hell. A week or so passes and the two guys meet each other again. How is EU hell, asks the Serb. The Croat says it's very cultured and all, everything is working like it's supposed to, but that teaspoon of sh*t every morning is driving him crazy since he can't get rid of the taste afterwards and so on. He can't imagine how miserable the Serb must be for eating a whole wheelbarrow every day. But the Serb says he's having a great time actually, drinking, eating and that there's no sh*t at all. The Croat asks him how this can be and the Serb says, you know things are in the Balkans, one day there are no wheelbarrows, the other day there is no sh*t, the third day we have no pitchforks to load the sh*t, so we never come so far to actually eat it.
:D
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,526
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#20
Also, Slovenes and Croats WERE dominant in Yugoslavia, particularly in the second, communist one.

Both first and second Yugoslavias were refuge for them after defeats, and both Slovenes and Croats benefited from Yugoslavia a lot.

But do not expact Croats or Slovenes to admit this - that would contradict official national mythologies of these proud banana republics.
Can you elaborate how Slovenes were dominant in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Did they dominate the army, or perhaps politics? Same questions for communist Yugoslavia.

What defeats are you talking about? As part of Austria-Hungary we only lost ww1.

It is taught in schools that the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was the best option available for us at the time, why should we not admit that on other positive things like the stopping of germanisation, finally gaining a university in Ljubljana etc? That doesn't mean there weren't other negative things or that everything was so darn amazing in the perfect country of Yugoslavia.
 
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