Was violence between American Indian tribes worse than violence between whites and Indians?

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,175
Sydney
Genghis Khan didn't use gunpowder and had a rather successful career as a world conqueror

his notion of conquest was brutal but fair , submit and get peace , religious tolerance and light taxation
else it was total annihilation ,
Mongols usually hardly bothered with torture , looking upon it as a waste of conquering time
 
Sep 2015
392
The Eastern Hinterlands
Generally speaking, was violence between American Indian tribes worse than violence between whites and American Indians in terms of war crimes perpetrated?
From what I've read the Indians were brutal to each other. Horrific tortures were the norm and I don't have to mention scalping. Western civilization and Christianity sure civilized them.
 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,653
San Diego
The population of native Americans never dwindled before colonization.
you have zero evidence on which to base such a claim.

IN fact, the Horse- introduced by europeans- caused a massive population boom in the native Americans who employed it to venture out on to the great plains. The Sioux and Cheyenne saw their numbers swell nearly tenfold.

Prior to the Horse, Human beings could not survive on the plains- there was little in the way of forage- and little in the way of game- other than buffalo, and humans on foot could not keep pace with the herd. So earlier peoples settled in major river valleys around the periphery of the plains- and whenever herds of buffalo would come near- they would try and stampede a bunch off of a bluff- or into a boxed in arroyo where they could kill masses of them.

That is why the buffalo became such a massive monoculture in a part of the world where nearly every other large source of game had been hunted to extinction.
Once the native americans had the horse- they started decimating the buffalo herds in earnest.
Between first european accounts of the buffalo herds from 1805 thru 1825- and the latter accounts in the 1860's the buffalo herds had been cut nearly in half-

That native cultures held a 'belief' in living in harmony with nature had no real bearing on whether they actually DID.
They simply lacked the ability to even assess their own impact on their ecosystem. No way to quantify the numbers of buffalo or how many were being killed how fast. No means of counting the herds or recording their size for future generations to look at and realize there were not as many as in their grandfather's time.

Prior to the horse- Entire bands of Native Americans were routinely wiped out by starvation in a bad winter-
 
Dec 2018
114
Cheyenne
Genghis Khan didn't use gunpowder and had a rather successful career as a world conqueror

his notion of conquest was brutal but fair , submit and get peace , religious tolerance and light taxation
else it was total annihilation ,
Mongols usually hardly bothered with torture , looking upon it as a waste of conquering time
That's not really true. Even if you submitted there was no guarantee that you would be spared destruction or that your occupation under the Mongols would be benign. The Mongol empire was so vast that subjugated cities that weren't completely destroyed had a natural autonomy simply because the Mongols couldn't be everywhere at once. However, when they were there you were considered a slave of the Khan to do with as he wished. Cannon fodder for storming cities? Yep. Sex slaves? Yep. Your possessions weren't your own, your life wasn't your own. You were a tool of the Khan.

The only thing cities that submitted really got especially when the Mongols were on campaign were the opportunity to use as arrow fodder or camp slave for the horde. If your city surrendered without a fight, you might be spared, likely you would suffer the same fate as a city that offered stiff resistance or you wish you had fought because your fate was likely not all that better. The Mongols also loved to promise peace and safety only to sack a city once allowed in the gates


Lastly torture was very much on the list of the things the Mongols were particularly imaginative at. From feasting on the writhing bodies of captured Russian princes to covering resistant Persians in animal fat and leaving them out in the sun.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,175
Sydney
certainly the mongols were fearsome and they could make someone wish he was dead but they were quite progressive on trade , tolerant of foreigners and used them extensively
from slaves to ministers

religion wise they had open minds and valued law and order , their laws and their order
 
Aug 2018
337
America
War is war. It’s rarely pleasant ... Indians slaughtering other Indians would be just as horrific and brutal as Indians slaughtering white settlers or white soldiers slaughtering Indians.
Native Americans didn't commit genocide on White settlers. Only the latter did against the former.
 
Aug 2011
178
The Castle Anthrax
Native Americans didn't commit genocide on White settlers. Only the latter did against the former.
Had it not been for the coincidence of disease, the natives would not have suffered near the mortality rate that they did. Despite the grandiose zeal of the period to tout various and sundry victories, of questionable merit, over the Indians, the settlers would have never prevailed without the devastating effects of disease on native populations. And yes, Indians also discriminately killed for the express purpose of annihilating all settlers in a given region. However, if you are possessed of evidence to the contrary, feel free to here present it.
 
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Zip

Jan 2018
566
Comancheria
Native Americans didn't commit genocide on White settlers. Only the latter did against the former.
They gave it a good try a couple of times.

It was never the policy of the United States to destroy the Indians; the intention was to subjugate them and take their best lands. As was done.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,185
Italy, Lago Maggiore
From what I've read the Indians were brutal to each other. Horrific tortures were the norm and I don't have to mention scalping. Western civilization and Christianity sure civilized them.
<Request for clarification>

@Steel of Fury ,
can you elaborate the conception you have expressed here? At first sight it seems that you are implying that American Natives were uncivilized and that Europeans, in particular the Christians, civilized them.
 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,653
San Diego
Native Americans didn't commit genocide on White settlers. Only the latter did against the former.
Whites did not commit genocide on native Americans.
They did not Intentionally give Natives measles and smallpox any more than the Natives intentionally gave Europeans syphilis.

Resettling cherokees to Oklahoma was certainly theft of their land, cruel, abusive and racist... but it was NOT annihilation.


Meanwhile there is ample evidence that native Americans did their level best to annihilate other native tribes... and they did their fair share of massacring- e.g. Jamestown.

The only difference in the outcomes in this conflict was the accident of which side had superior technology.

And you can not exonerate Native Americans of a crime they lacked the weaponry to commit.
Red Cloud, during the Bozeman trail war was told that if he killed every white person he saw in his lands, they would just send more- to which he replied that the Lakota would just kill all them as well.

A genocide would have been laughably easy for the United States to commit... and yet they did not. They actually feted Red Cloud in Washington and New York, and chronicled their people and what was being done to them. They were given reservations and even efforts ( though ill guided) were made to educate them and teach them to farm in hope they might assimilate.

Sorry- you can accuse the whites in North America of all sorts of inequities- of usurpation, or racism, or reneging on treaties, of economic exploitation, and cruelty and even indifference.
All of which they are guilty of.

But genocide? sorry. Never happened.

And Every Native American male was considered to be a warrior, first.

Every people on earth has blood on their hands.
Every culture is capable of the same horrors- and humanities.