Was World War I worth it?

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,857
Portugal
#41
"OH, No! He mentioned living space and conquest in the same sentence. Now, let me share with everyone the Hitler/lebensraum connection that comes to mind."
Why the comas? The sentences are yours.

poetic license: the freedom to depart from the facts of a matter or from the conventional rules of language when speaking or writing in order to create an effect.
Apparently you didn’t understood, or I didn’t explained myself well, that the poetic license was the “cold chill”.

Like I said: not helpful
Well, I consider that it was, Menshevik. We are in a Forum, so different ideas and opinions appear here.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,970
here
#42
We communicate with “mere words”, and words are important in human and social sciences, their use goes behind the common sense and the common daily use. In this case they have a historical significance that is difficult to erase since it happened quite recently. As for the “cold chill”, pardon me the poetic licence that I wrongly used, my bad on using “mere words” to express a quite rational thought.
Why the comas? The sentences are yours.



Apparently you didn’t understood, or I didn’t explained myself well, that the poetic license was the “cold chill”.



Well, I consider that it was, Menshevik. We are in a Forum, so different ideas and opinions appear here.

Allow me to rephrase my initial comment to you in the form of a question: Must we be reminded of Hitler every time someone makes the faux pas of using terms like, "living space," and "conquest," in the same sentence?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,857
Portugal
#43
Allow me to rephrase my initial comment to you in the form of a question: Must we be reminded of Hitler every time someone makes the faux pas of using terms like, "living space," and "conquest," in the same sentence?
Thank you for the rephrasing.

We are in a history forum, I think that we shouldn’t forget a context in which the terms were used, especially in a time when we see all over the world so many extremist resurgences, so we won’t fall too much in a “faux pas” misunderstandings. Besides, I don’t know if Futurist, that is a member of this forum that I respect, used it as a “faux pas” or not.
 
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Edratman

Ad Honorem
Feb 2009
6,280
Eastern PA
#44
Do you think that the families of those who were killed in the Texas War of Independence, the Mexican-American War, and the American Civil War would have said that their deaths were worth it?
Undoubtedly there were many who considered the sacrifice worthwhile.

My personal experience of war fatalities started with Vietnam and I know three families that have lost a son in combat over the past 50 years. I do not have the impression that any of them consider their loss "worth it".
 
Likes: Futurist

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,970
here
#45
Thank you for the rephrasing.

We are in a history forum, I think that we shouldn’t forget a context in which the terms were used, especially in a time when we see all over the world so many extremist resurgences, so we won’t fall too much in a “faux pas” misunderstandings. Besides, I don’t know if Futurist, that is a member of this forum that I respect, used it as a “faux pas” or not.
Aha! And that is the crux of the matter for me. You're equating movements that are too right-leaning for your tastes as being Hitleresque. That is why I took issue with your original post, it's as if there's a Hitler or Neo-Nazi in every shadow.

And that is what is so tedious, is this knee-jerk reaction, this emotive appeal to project onto people labels and definitions that are just not fair and neither are they accurate.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,819
Sydney
#46
I believe WW1 was inevitable ,a major conflict had been building up for decades
like a natural disaster which devastate village and change the course of rivers , the term "worth it " seems inappropriate

It exposed the utter failure of the empires , they were swept away to start a new growth which was latent

the war cycle of WW1 and it's second part WW2 must be seen as the end of the centuries old aristocratic Europe and ultimately the end of colonialism
it was bound to happen but the birth pains were atrocious .

Is the new Europe worth it ? some would say no
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,542
SoCal
#47
I must confess that when I see the terminology “living space” used in the context of a conquest, I have a cold chill. Anyway, the space to live is there, geographically speaking, either belonging to the USA or to any other country.

As for wars, WWI included, in principle they never worth the price that we pay.
Honestly, I think that the term "living space" should be redeemed just like LGBT people redeemed the use of the word "queer" (a word that was previously used by homophobes). Obviously what the Nazis did was extremely vile and completely immoral and this is why I strongly wish that someone would have put a bullet in Hitler's brain before he came to power or even early on in his rule (for instance, I consider it a tragedy that Georg Elser's attempt to kill Hitler in late 1939 failed).

What the Nazis did and planned to do was vile because they engaged in genocide against Jews and certain other groups and because they wanted to deport tens of millions of Slavs east of the Urals. When I think of the word "living space," I mean conquering a territory and settling it with your own people but also giving citizenship and legal equality to the existing population of these territories (as opposed to engaging in genocide against them or deporting them en masse elsewhere). IMHO, certain aspects of the US's Indian policy were unacceptable (such as the Trail of Tears or even taking land from Native Americans simply because gold was found on it), but ultimately the U.S. did the right thing in giving U.S. citizenship to its entire Native American population. Likewise, the US did the right thing when it gave U.S. citizenship to the Mexicans who were living in the Mexican Cession in 1848.

A German equivalent of this would have been conquering some territory but giving German citizenship and legal equality to the existing population of this territory (as opposed to engaging in genocide against them or expelling them en masse). Obviously this was feasible in the Baltic states--though even then, it would have been far from clear whether enough Germans would have actually been willing to settle there after a German conquest of these territories in order to create a German majority or German plurality there. As for expanding all of the way to the Urals, that would have clearly been unfeasible from a moral point of view since there were so many Slavs there that they would have easily outnumbered the German population--which is why a German expansion of that level would have been utterly stupid and foolish.

IMHO, the best examples of living space were what the US did (albeit with excessive brutality at times--something which would have been best if it would not have been done) and what the Russian Empire did in territories such as Siberia, the Far East, and what is now Kazakhstan. Also, Canada's expansion to the west and British settlement throughout Australia might be additional good examples of living space. As for France's conquest of Algeria, this would not be a good example of living space since the French made it virtually impossible for the Muslims living there to actually obtain French citizenship--which is why it was a good thing that Algeria ultimately seceded from France. Anyway, my point here is that the expansions that I mentioned above should be viewed as being the proper representation of living space--with the Nazis' actions in regards to this being a large aberration from the traditional concept of living space. Indeed, Nazi actions made "living space" a bad term whereas it doesn't have to be a bad term and might not have been a bad term had the Nazis never came to power in Germany.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,542
SoCal
#48
Aha! And that is the crux of the matter for me. You're equating movements that are too right-leaning for your tastes as being Hitleresque. That is why I took issue with your original post, it's as if there's a Hitler or Neo-Nazi in every shadow.

And that is what is so tedious, is this knee-jerk reaction, this emotive appeal to project onto people labels and definitions that are just not fair and neither are they accurate.
Thanks for defending me, Menshevik!

Anyway, I explained my views on living space in the post right above this one. I strongly hope that my explanation of this is sufficiently clear for Tulius and everyone else. In short, though, the Nazis strongly ruined the idea of living space through their extreme brutality and atrocities and I certainly hope that we all agree that it would have been much, much better had Hitler received a bullet to the head early enough and had the Nazis thus never come to power in Germany. IMHO, the pre-Nazi view of living space was something which was far more admirable than the Nazi view of living space--which should permanently be sent to Hell where it belongs.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,819
Sydney
#49
Lao tsu say " nature is not kind hearted ..the wise is not kind hearted "
history is filled with genocides or forceful acquiring of lands
all our fellows hominins are extinct save one ...us , Homo Sapiens Sapiens
even within this restricted clade ,wholesale genocides were common , from the study of past cultures it seems to have been the "normal "
those demises raise the issue of changing our name to Homo sapiens genocidus

It's not pretty , the truth often isn't
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
15,542
SoCal
#50
Lao tsu say " nature is not kind hearted ..the wise is not kind hearted "
history is filled with genocides or forceful acquiring of lands
all our fellows hominins are extinct save one ...us , Homo Sapiens Sapiens
even within this restricted clad ,wholesale genocides were common , from the study of past cultures it seems to have been the "normal "
those demises raise the issue of changing our name to Homo sapiens genocidus
Well, thankfully we have matured a lot since that point in time. :)