Water supply and aqueducts

Feb 2018
26
Juno Beach, Fl
#11
As I said, there was a decline in 20th century. That happens sometimes. Regardless, the notion that they "are just now beginning to irrigate" is demonstrably false.
Nowhere in sub-Saharan Africa had substantial irrigation.
When it didn't rain, they starved.
Even Recently, Cape Town is on the edge of running out of water.
Ahh, self rule! (is the proof of the pudding)

Ighayere said:
I didn't decline to respond to the rest of your post as a "cop-out", I'm just tired of addressing the same stuff over and over again on here. It's a waste of time.
...
You did NOT address what I said, and again Have not/CANNOT. What I said is fact.

And if you're not willing to address it/answer, stop posting/last-wording.

Again: I presented the undebatable big picture showing the Incredible Backwardness of sub-Sahara relative to Europe and Asia,
even pre-colonially.

sub-Saharans were still 98% Hunter-gatherers thousands of Years after Rome and the Chinese Civil Servce system.
They lived in 1900 app the same a they did 60,000 years ago.
Many still live that way!
Hunter gatherers in huts.

There can be no answer. It's a Fact.
So you disingenuously tried dismissal... twice
You got Busted.. twice.


EDIT:
Note below, another 100% last-wording whiff by Ighayere.
No answer to the above and it's previous two iterations.
There is none.

`
 
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Feb 2018
8
Canada
#13
Dude relax, have you read the references provided in the first page?
Coming here to start unnecessary arguments with established contributors is an easy way to get yourself banned.
Please do some cursory research, lest you insult yourself by arguing from a position of ignorance.
Nowhere in sub-Saharan Africa had substantial irrigation.
When it didn't rain, they starved.
Even Recently, Cape Town is on the edge of running out of water.
Ahh, self rule! (is the proof of the pudding)

You did NOT address what I said, and again Have not/CANNOT. What I said is fact.

And if you're not willing to address it/answer, stop posting/last-wording.

Again: I presented the undebatable big picture showing the Incredible Backwardness of sub-Sahara relative to Europe and Asia,
even pre-colonially.

sub-Saharans were still 98% Hunter-gatherers thousands of Years after Rome and the Chinese Civil Servce system.
They lived in 1900 app the same a they did 60,000 years ago.
Many still live that way!
Hunter gatherers in huts.

There can be no answer. It's a Fact.
So you disingenuously tried dismissal... twice
You got Busted.. twice.


EDIT:
Note below, another 100% last-wording whiff by Ighayere.
No answer to the above and it's previous two iterations.
There is none.

`
 
Mar 2012
305
#14
Pre-Colonial..
When Marco Polo came upon China (app 1300) he found, Silk, Porcelain, Astronomical records, a Civil service system, etc.

While even in 1900 sub-Saharans basically lived as they had 60,000 years earlier, when others left and became more advanced.
Many still do.
Hunter-gatherers.
First off your whole argument is fallacious, notice how you get specific when dealing with entities such as China, Rome etc but you brush a whole continent of people under one brush with your “sub-Saharan” argument. So which “sub Sahara” people are you talking about because you DO REALIZE that there were empires and cultures in Africa such as Nubia, Axum, Nok etc which pretty much dismantle your whole argument.

Second since you want to mention Marco Polo here are primary first hand accounts of travelers who visited various African states and what they reported

We ... traveled by sea to the city of Kulwa [Kilwa in East Africa]...Most of its people are Zunuj, extremely black...The city of Kulwa is amongst the most beautiful of cities and most elegantly built... Their uppermost virtue is religion and righteousness and they are Shafi'i in rite."

Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1331









I embarked at Maqdashaw [Mogadishu] for the Sawahil [Swahili] country, with the object of visiting the town of Kulwa [Kilwa, Quiloa] in the land of the Zanj.

We came to Mambasa [Mombasa], a large island two days' journey by sea from the Sawihil country. It possesses no territory on the mainland. They have fruit trees on the island, but no cereals, which have to be brought to them from the Sawahil. Their food consists chiefly of bananas and fish.The inhabitants are pious, honourable, and upright, and they have well-built wooden mosques.

-Ibn Bhattuta









From Tumbuktu I sailed down the Nile on a small boat, hollowed out of a single piece of wood.

I went on . . . to Gawgaw [Gogo], which is a large city on the Nile, and one of the finest towns in the Negrolands. It is also one of their biggest and best-provisioned towns, with rice in plenty, milk, and fish, and there is a species of cucumber there called "inani" which has no equal. The buying and selling of its inhabitants is done with cowry-shells, and the same is the case at Malli [the city of Mali]. I stayed there about a month, and then set out in the direction of Tagadda by land with a large caravan of merchants from Ghadamas.

-Ibn Bhattuta





The name of this kingdom is a modern one, after a city which was built by a king named Mansa Suleyman in the year 610 of the hegira [1232 CE] around twelve miles from a branch of the Niger River. (1)

The houses of Timbuktu are huts made of clay-covered wattles with thatched roofs. In the center of the city is a temple built of stone and mortar, built by an architect named Granata, (2) and in addition there is a large palace, constructed by the same architect, where the king lives. The shops of the artisans, the merchants, and especially weavers of cotton cloth are very numerous. Fabrics are also imported from Europe to Timbuktu, borne by Berber merchants. (3)

The women of the city maintain the custom of veiling their faces, except for the slaves who sell all the foodstuffs. The inhabitants are very rich, especially the strangers who have settled in the country; so much so that the current king (4) has given two of his daughters in marriage to two brothers, both businessmen, on account of their wealth. There are many wells containing sweet water in Timbuktu; and in addition, when the Niger is in flood canals deliver the water to the city. Grain and animals are abundant, so that the consumption of milk and butter is considerable. But salt is in very short supply because it is carried here from Tegaza, some 500 miles from Timbuktu. I happened to be in this city at a time when a load of salt sold for eighty ducats. The king has a rich treasure of coins and gold ingots. One of these ingots weighs 970 pounds. (5)

The royal court is magnificent and very well organized. When the king goes from one city to another with the people of his court, he rides a camel and the horses are led by hand by servants. If fighting becomes necessary, the servants mount the camels and all the soldiers mount on horseback. When someone wishes to speak to the king, he must kneel before him and bow down; but this is only required of those who have never before spoken to the king, or of ambassadors. The king has about 3,000 horsemen and infinity of foot-soldiers armed with bows made of wild fennel [?] which they use to shoot poisoned arrows. This king makes war only upon neighboring enemies and upon those who do not want to pay him tribute. When he has gained a victory, he has all of them--even the children--sold in the market at Timbuktu.

Only small, poor horses are born in this country. The merchants use them for their voyages and the courtiers to move about the city. But the good horses come from Barbary. They arrive in a caravan and, ten or twelve days later, they are led to the ruler, who takes as many as he likes and pays appropriately for them.

The king is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods. There are in Timbuktu numerous judges, teachers and priests, all properly appointed by the king. He greatly honors learning. Many hand-written books imported from Barbary are also sold. There is more profit made from this commerce than from all other merchandise.

-Leo Africanus
 
Mar 2012
305
#15
Cont.

"fine buildings, spacious houses, churches with much gold, and gardens. There is a quarter in it inhabited by Muslims . . . they have well bred horses and Arab camels. Their religion is Jacobite Christianity and their bishops come from the patriarch of Alexandria ... and their books are in Greek which they translate into their own language.-

Ibn Selim el Aswani,
description of Soba, Alwah(Christian Nubia)





“It seemed to be very big, when you go into it, you enter a great broad street, which is not paved, and seems to be seven or eight times broader than the Warmoes street in Amsterdam [the capital of Holland]. The street is straight, and does not bend at any point. It is thought to be four miles long.
‘At the gate where I went in on horseback, I saw a very big wall, very thick and made of earth, with a very deep and broad ditch outside it… And outside the gate there is also a big suburb. Inside the gate, and along the great street just mentioned, you see many other great streets on either side, and these are also straight and do not bend…

The houses in this town stand in good order, one close and evenly placed with its neighbor, just as the houses in Holland stand…They have square rooms, sheltered by a roof that is open in the middle, where the rain, and wind and light come in. The people sleep and eat in these rooms, but they have other rooms for cooking and different purposes…

The king’s court is very great. It is built around many square-shaped yards. These yards have surrounding galleries where sentries are always places. I myself went into these court far enough to pass through four great yards like this, and yet wherever I looked I could still see gate after gate which opened into other yards....'

Dutch traveler O. Dapper-1602
Description of Benin City
 
Feb 2018
26
Juno Beach, Fl
#16
First off your whole argument is fallacious, notice how you get specific when dealing with entities such as China, Rome etc but you brush a whole continent of people under one brush with your “sub-Saharan” argument. So which “sub Sahara” people are you talking about because you DO REALIZE that there were empires and cultures in Africa such as Nubia, Axum, Nok etc which pretty much dismantle your whole argument.
The fallaciousness is ALL Yours.
NOWHERE On the whole sub-Saharan, sub-Continent, had they reached the level of China.
Not close.
That I gave you a whole sub-Continent to match China, and you still could Not, only makes my argument stronger, and yours more pathetic.
I could add Japan as well.

Jari said:
Second since you want to mention Marco Polo here are primary first hand accounts of travelers who visited various African states and what they reported
We ... traveled by sea to the city of Kulwa [Kilwa in East Africa]...Most of its people are Zunuj, extremely black...The city of Kulwa is amongst the most beautiful of cities and most elegantly built... Their uppermost virtue is religion and righteousness andthey are Shafi'i in rite."
Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1331
......
I embarked at Maqdashaw [Mogadishu] for the Sawahil [Swahili] country, with the object of visiting the town of Kulwa [Kilwa, Quiloa] in the land of the Zanj......
One notes...
1. You 8-10 vertical Space to try and add volume..hoping others will take it for content/credibility.
It's rather transparently FUNNY!

2. In the same vein...
Then, you make a second post to try the same ILLUSION Of Plenty of material.
Hoping people will mistake volume/a second post, as 'SO much evidence'.
It's rather a teenage magic trick attempt.
Really ONE post, Hugely spaced and divided to PUFF UP the the vertical space/illusion of content.

3. Virtually all your ''sub-Saharan' cultures are POST-CONTACT with Arabs.
Kilwa, a small trading Island off the Tanzania coast frequented for centuries by Arab Traders.
Tho Battuta marveled at their MOSQUE.
Yep, many cite [copied] Mosques as sub-Saharan accomplishment.
But it ain't native afro culture
As early as 700 AD there were fare more spectacular mosques in the Mideast. Replete with Domes, Tens of thousands of ceramic Tiles, Caligraphy, etc.

So by 1330 Battuta didn't see Afro, he saw Mosque-O/Islamic influence, perhaps even Arab Planned, and built by slaves.
Probably also nice for Arabs to see some Green instead of sand.

There are virtually No pre-contact afro-cultures of note, and still NONE to Match China or Rome... or even close.
Again, almost all Arab trading outposts.
Some natives (several Kings) had even been brought to the Mid-East and saw their Mosques, etc and COPIED the technology/style, and converted.
Their mosque copies are bad caricatures of ones they had seen. Some look like melted mud/adobe copies.


Rome, incidentally who installed the same fine water works as far as the conquered UK. Hark "Bath"!
And speaking of the UK, Stonehenge is 4000++ years old.

And of course and again.
There not only WAS, But IS Ethiopia.
Still UNANSWERED

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia#Economy
Economy

In spite of fast growth in recent years, GDP per capita is one of the Lowest in the world, and the economy faces a number of serious structural problems. However, with a focused investment in public infrastructure and industrial parks, Ethiopia's economy is addressing its structural problems to become a hub for light manufacturing in Africa.[130] Agricultural productivity remains low, and frequent Droughts still beset the country.[131]

"Ethiopia is often IRONICALLY referred to as the 'Water Tower' of Eastern Africa because of the many (14 majors) rivers that pour off the high tableland", including the Nile. "It also has the Greatest Water reserves in Africa, but few irrigation systems in place to use it.
Just 1% is used for power production and 1.5% for irrigation."
[132] In recent years, however, Ethiopia has completed several major dams[133] for hydroelectricity production and irrigation. Ethiopia, despite Egypt's initial protest, is also in the process of constructing a 6000 MW and Africa's largest hydroelectric dam ( GERD dam) on the Nile river.[134]..."​​


2000+ years after Rome, and with much more water by Far, they still, and famously, have Droughts that kill Tens of thousands, displace many times more.
They are slaves to the land/weather, not masters of it.


And I also repeat... UNrefuted...
That 98% of sub-Saharan Africa lived app the same way in 1900 as they did 60,000 years ago, despite some tiny and forgotten spikes (your material).. mostly of Foreign influence/prosperity. (Arabs in search of goods/slaves who temporarily buoyed their backwards cultures)
`
 
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Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,469
Benin City, Nigeria
#18
Jari, you're wasting your time. If it were any other section of the forum the poster would probably already have been banned for just making stuff up ("arid conditions" for Rome) and for going off topic specifically to troll.

By the way, since you mentioned Asante in an earlier post, there are several similar quotes to the ones that you have posted for some other places, in European descriptions of various aspects of Asante, a state that visitors were invariably very impressed with.

Edit: Regarding that Timbuktu quote, Leo Africanus does not really use "huts" in the original. That's something that is just in certain translations. But basically he thought they were "cottages" made out of "chalk" or clay.
 
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Mar 2012
305
#20
Yeah bro I was going to debate him but I realized that this person is probably only here to derail the topic and get the thread locked. I mean I realized how much of an ameteur he was when he claimed most of Africans lived as hunter gatherers without changing in 60,000 years which I doubt any academic source with peer review would back up so yeah a waste of time

Btw do you have those quotes I’m trying to collect as much primary sources on visitors to African kingdoms as I can.

Oddly enough I found a book years back in my college library that had descriptive of the Swahili states by the Portuguese when they first visited them and how they were in awe at the beauty and wealth of Zanzibar/Swahili culture. The descriptions were so romantic and over the top I wish I had copied it down, sadly I’ve never been able to find them again....

Anyway if you got some stuff PM me .... thanks
Jari, you're wasting your time. If it were any other section of the forum the poster would probably already have been banned for just making stuff up ("arid conditions" for Rome) and for going off topic specifically to troll.

By the way, since you mentioned Asante in an earlier post, there are several similar quotes to the ones that you have posted for some other places, in European descriptions of various aspects of Asante, a state that visitors were invariably very impressed with.

Edit: Regarding that Timbuktu quote, Leo Africanus does not really use "huts" in the original. That's something that is just in certain translations. But basically he thought they were "cottages" made out of "chalk" or clay.
 

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