Welsh History

Feb 2008
275
Cincinnati
#13
However Edward was never going to let the Welsh live in peace in their own way and laws. So I suppose eventually Edward would crush Llwelyn, something that Henry 111 could not do to Llwelyn's grandfather - Llwelyn the Great.
I think you answered your own question right there. As a fellow student of the period, I'd be interested to learn what books you read, but I imagine that they discussed the importance of the legal disputes between Llwelyn and Edward. Edward of course wanted English Common Law to prevail in Wales, while Llwelyn tried to preserve Welsh laws and customs. Same thing in Scotland; the more territory Edward could impose English law on the more power he would wield.

I think another motivation for Edward might have been that his father, Henry III, was such a weak king. By subduing Wales and Scotland, he would send a clear message that he was not a ruler to be trifled with.
 
May 2007
1,755
Australia
#14
I think you answered your own question right there. As a fellow student of the period, I'd be interested to learn what books you read, but I imagine that they discussed the importance of the legal disputes between Llwelyn and Edward. Edward of course wanted English Common Law to prevail in Wales, while Llwelyn tried to preserve Welsh laws and customs. Same thing in Scotland; the more territory Edward could impose English law on the more power he would wield.

I think another motivation for Edward might have been that his father, Henry III, was such a weak king. By subduing Wales and Scotland, he would send a clear message that he was not a ruler to be trifled with.
Hi Pantagreul,

These are the books I read. I have also made mention on these on the thread "What are you reading", which sometimes has some interesting books mentioned. I just gave them back to the person that lent them to me, so luckily the names of them were in a thread somewhere else!
They are:
"Here be Dragons" by Sharon Penman. It is the first of a series the 2nd being "Falls the Shadow" and the 3rd "The Reckoning"
Well worth reading!
 
Feb 2008
275
Cincinnati
#15
Hey Tudor chick,

I was lucky enough to come across those books myself a few years back, and I loved all of them. Ms. Penman has a few others that are also very good, my favorite being "The Sunne in Splendour". It deals with the War of the Roses and gives a much different account of Richard III than we're used to from Shakespeare.

I know "Falls the Shadow" very well, as I based the thesis paper for my history degree on its account of Simon de Montfort. Basically I read through as many of the medieval chronicles I could find (and had been translated from Latin!) and several books/journal articles and compared what I found to how Penman portrayed Simon. It was a lot of work, but a lot of fun as well.

I think Penman has a bit of a bias towards de Montfort and the Welsh, and that is probably why you're so upset with Edward I for conquering them! That said tho, she does an amazing amount of research for her novels and is well above average in getting the historical facts correct. There were several times in my own research that I came across chronicle accounts that she had either used or quoted verbatim in her books, so they are definitely a good (and entertaining) way to learn about English history.
 
May 2007
1,755
Australia
#16
Hey Tudor chick,

I was lucky enough to come across those books myself a few years back, and I loved all of them. Ms. Penman has a few others that are also very good, my favorite being "The Sunne in Splendour". It deals with the War of the Roses and gives a much different account of Richard III than we're used to from Shakespeare.

I know "Falls the Shadow" very well, as I based the thesis paper for my history degree on its account of Simon de Montfort. Basically I read through as many of the medieval chronicles I could find (and had been translated from Latin!) and several books/journal articles and compared what I found to how Penman portrayed Simon. It was a lot of work, but a lot of fun as well.

I think Penman has a bit of a bias towards de Montfort and the Welsh, and that is probably why you're so upset with Edward I for conquering them! That said tho, she does an amazing amount of research for her novels and is well above average in getting the historical facts correct. There were several times in my own research that I came across chronicle accounts that she had either used or quoted verbatim in her books, so they are definitely a good (and entertaining) way to learn about English history.
Sounds as if you know your stuff then ;) how and where did you find these chronicles?:confused:

I did wonder at the time of reading these, when it was right or ever right for a citizen - e.g., Simon de Montfort to knock a reining monarch from the throne.
Henry was a very weak king, and did not uphold the reforms Simon wanted, but did that give him the right to basically cause a civil war?
No wonder Edward hated him? Having said that though, it was pretty disgusting what they did to Simon’s body:eek:
If you have any books that paint Edward 1st in a good light, please tell.

I have been told about Sharon Penman’s other book you mentioned and will try to get it when I have finished my current pile of books I have awaiting to read:)
 
Feb 2008
275
Cincinnati
#17
Sounds as if you know your stuff then ;) how and where did you find these chronicles?:confused:

I did wonder at the time of reading these, when it was right or ever right for a citizen - e.g., Simon de Montfort to knock a reining monarch from the throne.
Henry was a very weak king, and did not uphold the reforms Simon wanted, but did that give him the right to basically cause a civil war?
No wonder Edward hated him? Having said that though, it was pretty disgusting what they did to Simon’s body:eek:
If you have any books that paint Edward 1st in a good light, please tell.

I have been told about Sharon Penman’s other book you mentioned and will try to get it when I have finished my current pile of books I have awaiting to read:)
Hey, you're not alone in wondering whether Simon de Montfort was right or wrong, historians have been debating that for centuries! Some label him a "dark force" who was only after power, while others think he was a martyr to constitutional democracy. I take a more middle course; I think he truly believed in his principles, but he also felt the lure of wealth and power. You'll just have to decide for yourself :)

As for where I found my chronicles and other sources, I got them through the university library (Miami of Ohio). My principle chronicle source was that of Matthew Paris, a monk at St. Albans near London in the 13th century. I'll put a link to the book on amazon.com, although you may be able to get it through your local library. Try a search for "Matthew Paris's English History," there are several editions but this is the most common title. If your library doesn't have a copy they may be able to get one from another library if you request it. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Matthew-Pariss-English-History-V1/dp/0548294232/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203309649&sr=8-2"]Amazon.com: Matthew Paris's English History V1: From The Year 1235 To 1273 (9780548294239): Matthew Paris, J. A. Giles: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XX3z0PlZL.@@AMEPARAM@@41XX3z0PlZL[/ame]

Not sure I can help you with Edward, he was a pretty vicious bastard :). I didn't read as much about him as I would have liked, but I can tell you about a good biography of Simon. It's called (oddly enough) "Simon de Montfort" by J.R. Maddicott. It can be a bit scholarly and dry, but it goes into some of the darker aspects of his character that Penman leaves out of her novel.

Hope this helps; it's nice to find someone who is interested in this subject! Here in the United States this sort of thing really isn't taught at all, except at university-level of course. If I hadn't stumbled on Penman's "Falls the Shadow" at a bookstore, I probably would have never heard of Simon de Montfort or Llywelyn ap Gruffydd.
 
May 2007
1,755
Australia
#18
Hey, you're not alone in wondering whether Simon de Montfort was right or wrong, historians have been debating that for centuries! Some label him a "dark force" who was only after power, while others think he was a martyr to constitutional democracy. I take a more middle course; I think he truly believed in his principles, but he also felt the lure of wealth and power. You'll just have to decide for yourself :)

As for where I found my chronicles and other sources, I got them through the university library (Miami of Ohio). My principle chronicle source was that of Matthew Paris, a monk at St. Albans near London in the 13th century. I'll put a link to the book on amazon.com, although you may be able to get it through your local library. Try a search for "Matthew Paris's English History," there are several editions but this is the most common title. If your library doesn't have a copy they may be able to get one from another library if you request it. http://www.amazon.com/Matthew-Paris...bs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203309649&sr=8-2

Not sure I can help you with Edward, he was a pretty vicious bastard :). I didn't read as much about him as I would have liked, but I can tell you about a good biography of Simon. It's called (oddly enough) "Simon de Montfort" by J.R. Maddicott. It can be a bit scholarly and dry, but it goes into some of the darker aspects of his character that Penman leaves out of her novel.

Hope this helps; it's nice to find someone who is interested in this subject! Here in the United States this sort of thing really isn't taught at all, except at university-level of course. If I hadn't stumbled on Penman's "Falls the Shadow" at a bookstore, I probably would have never heard of Simon de Montfort or Llywelyn ap Gruffydd.
I had not heard a lot of him either before this book. It would probably be good to read a text style book that leaves out the romanticism of Penman’s books to get both sides of the story.
I had read of Llewellyn, but not to that extent that Penman went to.

I just went and looked at the chapter in A History of Britain for this period of history and it states pretty much the same as Penman’s book but more factual and less romantic. I did realise the importance of Simon De Monfort until reading Penman’s books.

I have been to a small part of Wales, and these books have made me just want to go to where this was all set.
I found a interesting web site that claims their manor house is Pen Y Bryn, The Princes' Tower the site is http://www.castlewales.com/pen.htmlh
It has some interesting information.
I agree with every thing you said about Edward 1 he was a rotter!
 
Last edited:
Feb 2008
275
Cincinnati
#19
I had not heard a lot of him either before this book. It would probably be good to read a text style book that leaves out the romanticism of Penman’s books to get both sides of the story.
I had read of Llewellyn, but not to that extent that Penman went to.

I just went and looked at the chapter in A History of Britain for this period of history and it states pretty much the same as Penman’s book but more factual and less romantic. I did realise the importance of Simon De Monfort until reading Penman’s books.

I have been to a small part of Wales, and these books have made me just want to go to where this was all set.
I found a interesting web site that claims their manor house is Pen Y Bryn, The Princes' Tower the site is http://www.castlewales.com/pen.htmlh
It has some interesting information.
I agree with every thing you said about Edward 1 he was a rotter!
I am so jealous that you've been to Wales! Just the other day I was looking into airfare and tour packages; I hope to make the trip sometime in the next couple years. I'm with you, ever since I read those books I've wanted to go, and the pictures on the castles of wales website are so excellent I want to see it all in person :)
 
May 2007
1,755
Australia
#20
I am so jealous that you've been to Wales! Just the other day I was looking into airfare and tour packages; I hope to make the trip sometime in the next couple years. I'm with you, ever since I read those books I've wanted to go, and the pictures on the castles of wales website are so excellent I want to see it all in person :)
I have just been looking into air fares too. I am off to London on the 28th March for an interview at Buckingham Palace as a tour guide for the summer season - July, August, September. So hopefully I can go to Wales then.:)
Just had a brain wave - I should try and get a job as a tour guide in Wales:cool:
Now you can be double jealous:D ;)
 

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