Were Paekche and Shilla vassals of Yamato?

Jun 2013
23
Australia
#81
I haven't read the annals myself, but yeah I suppose it would have to have been a somewhat serious crisis if Silla would actually seek the assistance of a powerful rival state to help fend off these attacks by Wa
 
Mar 2015
767
Europe
#82
Seems like most if not nearly all of these raids resulted in complete defeat of the attackers. A sure sign that Japan was lagging militarily in it's early history?
Then why did Japanese keep coming?
Japanese accounts agree in mentioning Japanese military activity in Korea in 5th century and stopping it in the end of 5th century, but they do claim some of their own successes (and attribute cessation of their attacks to their failures).

How much does Samguk sagi tell about Battle of Hakusukinoe?
 
#83
Then why did Japanese keep coming?
Japanese accounts agree in mentioning Japanese military activity in Korea in 5th century and stopping it in the end of 5th century, but they do claim some of their own successes (and attribute cessation of their attacks to their failures).

How much does Samguk sagi tell about Battle of Hakusukinoe?
This is a recurring question in East Asian history. Since the earliest period of 3 kingdoms, why Japanese always attack Silla, but not Baekje? Why at the beginning of Silla history a royal family member is held hostage in Japan and an official had to trick the Japanese into bringing him back? Why Japan aid Baekje at every war Baekje is involved in, even when it costs tremendous amount of life and hardly any profit? Again and again, for centuries. Even when Baekje falls to silla and Tang, why Japan keep sending troops to help Baekje revival? Only to be crushed?

The scholars interpret this as a very intricate relationship between baekje and japan. Japan's attacks on silla can be seen as an extension of Baekje's aggression on Silla. Whether Japanese leaders took orders from Baekje, or Baekje bribed Japan to fight for Baekje, Japan continuously sent troops to fight for Baekje for centuries. Even if Japan seemed to gain nothing from attacking silla, they must have got some benefit from Baekje, either in financial payment or cultural or technological support, provided they werent part of Baekjes direct control. But the most convincing explanation is that Baekje and Yamato families intermarried,and thus related clans.

Baekje supplied Japan with iron, technology, culture, literature. religion, craftsmen, etc. Baekje and Japan were inserparable. Japanese emperor admitted he had Baekje ancestry. King Geunchogo gave Japan the 7 bladed sword as a symbolic gesture of anointing a knight to fight for Baekje. The relationship was mutual. In all the aid efforts, Japan not once requested anything from Baekje, in form of land, compensation, or trading rights. It was as if the two countries shared destinies.

As I mentioned before, Japanese let Baekje crown prince lead the combined armies of Japan, baekje, against Silla. You usually dont let another countrys military leader take control of your army unless you acknowledgd their superiority. unless the Japanese are just mercenaries. But this is unlikely because Japanese ONLY sided with Baekje, even against superior forces like Goguryeo and China, and even after the Fall of Baekje, when baekje couldnt possibly offer anything in compensation.

this aspect is explored in further detail here

Baekje

"There is evidence that the Wa was actually a feudal state ruled by the Baekje kings who now possessed a modern sailing fleet and controlled the lucrative trading areas around the Yellow and South Seas"

Ancient Korean & Japanese Relations


When Silla attacked Baekje, Baekje asked for help from Japan, and when Baekje
eventually fell, according to the Nihongi, Japan mourned: “Chyu-yu has fallen; there is
nothing more to be done; this day the name of Baekje has become extinct. Shall we ever
again visit the place where the tombs of our ancestors are?”
 
Last edited:
Sep 2016
446
天下
#84
Baekje

"There is evidence that the Wa was actually a feudal state ruled by the Baekje kings who now possessed a modern sailing fleet and controlled the lucrative trading areas around the Yellow and South Seas"
Unfortunately the website neither cites any sources of this claim, nor points to the evidence the author had in mind. So, it's quite worthless.


When Silla attacked Baekje, Baekje asked for help from Japan, and when Baekje
eventually fell, according to the Nihongi, Japan mourned: “Chyu-yu has fallen; there is
nothing more to be done; this day the name of Baekje has become extinct. Shall we ever
again visit the place where the tombs of our ancestors are?”
This translation has problems, the source says:
百濟州柔城始降於唐。是時國人相謂之曰。
Bakeje castle of Chyu-yu (or Tsune) has fallen to Tang. At that moment the countrymen said to each other: [...].

Of course, one can argue that the countrymen here refers to people of Yamato, as the chronicle is Japanese. However, what your quote omits is the following part:

但可往於弖禮城會日本軍將等相謀事機所要。

"However, we should go to Terasashi and meet the generals of Yamato, and plan with them what needs to be done."

Why would Japanese countrymen need to specify that they should meet generals of Yamato? Why not just generals? The most logical answer is that 國人 here doesn't refer to Japanese, but Baekje people. And so the quote refers to Baekje people (running away from Tang) who are afraid that they will never see the tombs of their ancestors again.
 
Likes: Richardrli
#85
Here are more interesting documents regarding the subject.

"A c c o rding to Samguk-sagi ’s standard, the ab ove re c o rds of confl i c t s between Paekche and Koguryeo, and exchanges between Paekche and Wa are rather ex c ep t i o n a l ly frequent and conspicuous. Furt h e rm o re, the re n ewe d re c o rds on Jin-fa m i ly m e m b e rs at t ract our attention in re l ation to the frequent involvement of Wa’s army in Paekche’s conflicts against Koguryeo that are described in Kwanggaet’o stele. It has been suggested that Homudawake might have been one of the Jin-family members. We contend that, since Homuda-wake was a member of the Paekche royal fa m i ly and since his fo l l owe rs who helped him conquer Japan we re all Paekche people, Paekche did welcome the establishment of the Yamato Wa. A c c o rding to Nihongi (NI: 251), King Keun Ch’ogo of Pa e k ch e [A.D. 346-375] addressed his grandson, Prince Chim-nyu [who reigned during A.D. 384-385], saying: “The honourable country east of the sea with which we are now in communication [Yamato Wa] has been opened to us by Heaven . . . . Consequently the foundation of our land is confirmed for ever. Thou shouldst cultivate well its friendship , and having collected our n ational products [specifi c a l ly, the iron from Cheolsan -- Iron Mountain], wait on it with tribute without ceasing.”2 <2>

Indeed, Nihongi records numerous touching episodes that clearly indicate a close kinship between the Paekche rulers and the Yamato imperial clan . Nihongi also records the Yamato relationships with Silla and Koguryo, but the narrations of these relations conspicuously lack intimacy. This section presents the passages of Nihongi that suggest strongly that Homuda-wake and the Yamato imperial clan must have originated within the Paekche royal family. "
http://www.hongwontack.pe.kr/homepage4/data/450612.pdf
the text is not copy paste friendly, so you can read the rest here.

This is not being nationalistic. In fact the document heavily suggests Baekje and Japan are parts of the same nation, and that the Emperor of Japan is the ruler of both. But the Japanese imperial family actually originated FROM baekje.

This passage is hard to understand without accepting this theory.

"In A.D. 475, Kog u ryeo conquered Pa e k ch e ’s capital Hanseong , forcing Paekche to move its capital to Ungjin [Kongju]. In Nihongi (NI: 366- 367), we read that the “King of Kog u ryeo raised a gre at army and utterly smote Pa e k ch e. Th e re was but a small remnant left, wh i ch assembled to occupy Chang-ha. Their victuals became exhausted, and deep was hereupon the weeping and lamentations. Upon this the Koguryeo generals addressed their King, saying: ‘Th e re is something ex t ra o rd i n a ry in the temper of Paekche. Whenever thy servants observe them, they seem unaware of their own ruin. It is to be feared that they will again spread forth and revive. We pray that they may be at length got rid of.’ The King said: ‘No! I . . . have h e a rd that the Land of Pa e k che is under the jurisdiction of the Country of Japan, and that this connection is of old standing. It is also known to all the n e i g h b o u ring countries that their King rep a i rs to Japan and serves the Emperor.’ Ultimately it [the proposal to exterminate the Paekche people] was ab a n d o n e d.” Nihongi (NI: 367) continues: “The Empero r, hearing that Paekche had been conquered by Koguryeo, gave Kuma-nari [Ungjin] to King Munju [ A . D. 475-477], and so lent aid to his country.”< 1 0 > These statements stro n g ly support the proposition that line of the imperial clan originated within the Paekche royal family. Nihongi (NI: 369) records also that on the death of King Sam-Keun of Paekche [A.D. 477-479], who succeeded King Munju, “summoned within the Palace Prince M ata (Mute), the second son of Prince Ko n j i ’s five sons, who wa s young in years, but intelligent. He himself stroked the Prince’s face and head, and made a gracious decree, appointing him to reign over that country. He became King Tong-seong [A.D. 479-501].” <11> These records project a feeling of close kinship between Paekche and Yamato rulers."


Putting all these pieces of puzzle together, we get a picture. This is like Emperor Constantine moving to the Constantinople of the Eastern Roman Empire and ruling the whole empire, because it's more lucrative, even though the original Roman emperors came from Italy.
Here's more.


"Western scholars have tended to accept the one-sided Japanese version of ancient histories, but they cannot help being ex t re m e ly puzzled by the question posed thus by Batten (1986): “Why the Japanese should have thrown themselves with such vigor into a war [between Paekche and Silla-Tang] that, if not quite an intramural Korean conflict, had at least no direct bearing on Japanese territory, is not easy to answer. The explanation offered by Nihon shoki [i.e., the statement made by Saimei ] . . . while high-sounding, can hardly be taken at face value.”7 A c c o rding to Nihongi (NII: 252-255), a grandson of Saimei [A.D. 655- 661], Prince Ta ke ru, died in A.D. 658 at the age of eight, and his re m a i n s were deposited in a tomb which was raised for him over the Imaki valley . The Imaki va l l ey was the place wh e re the Imaki Aya people fro m Paekche were settled during the reign of Saimei was beside herself with grief, and she made up songs, saying:

On the Hill of Womure8 in Imaki If but a cloud arose, plain to be seen, Why should I lament?
I never thought that he was young As the young grass . . . . . . Like the flowing water of the River Asuka Which surges as it flows, unceasingly I long for him! . . . . . . Though I pass over the mountains and cross the seas Yet can I never forget the pleasant Region of Imaki. . . . . . .

Nihongi (NII: 255) records that Saimei “commanded Mari , Hada no Oho-kura no Miyakko , saying: ‘Let these verses be handed down and let them not be fo rgotten by the wo rl d.’ ”< 2 5 > Hada was an ex t re m e ly large Paekche family whose ancestors had immigrated during the reign of Homudawake. This is just another example of how the emotive records suggest an ex t re m e ly intimate re l ationship between Pa e k che and the Ya m ato imperi a l clan."

And finally, going back to your interpretation of the previous quote, here is the full context. The people quoted were Yamato people, not Baekje refugees.

"N i h o n gi (NII: 279-280) re c o rds that the Japanese fo rce of more than 10,000 stout fe l l ows dispat ched by the Ya m ato ru l e rs was annihilated by a fleet of 170 Tang fighting ships in a battle near the mouth of the Pa e k ch o n R iver in the 8th month, A.D. 663, and that Chu-yu also fell to the Tang fo rces short ly there a f t e r. 9 N i h o n gi (NII: 280) describes the reaction of the Ya m ato people when they heard the news that the Pa e k ch e city of Chu-yu had surre n d e red to Tang fo rces: “Then the people of the c o u n t ry said to one another ‘Chu-yu has fallen; there is nothing more to be done; this day the name of Pa e k che has become extinct. Shall we eve r visit again the place wh e re the tombs of our ancestors are?’ .”10 <26> The re c o rds of Kojiki and Nihongi presented in this section re c o n fi rm the blood re l ationship among the ru l e rs of Pa e k che and Ya m at o "
 
Last edited:
Mar 2015
767
Europe
#86
This is a recurring question in East Asian history. Since the earliest period of 3 kingdoms, why Japanese always attack Silla, but not Baekje? Why at the beginning of Silla history a royal family member is held hostage in Japan and an official had to trick the Japanese into bringing him back? Why Japan aid Baekje at every war Baekje is involved in, even when it costs tremendous amount of life and hardly any profit? Again and again, for centuries. Even when Baekje falls to silla and Tang, why Japan keep sending troops to help Baekje revival? Only to be crushed?

The scholars interpret this as a very intricate relationship between baekje and japan. Japan's attacks on silla can be seen as an extension of Baekje's aggression on Silla. Whether Japanese leaders took orders from Baekje, or Baekje bribed Japan to fight for Baekje, Japan continuously sent troops to fight for Baekje for centuries. Even if Japan seemed to gain nothing from attacking silla, they must have got some benefit from Baekje, either in financial payment or cultural or technological support, provided they werent part of Baekjes direct control. But the most convincing explanation is that Baekje and Yamato families intermarried,and thus related clans.

Baekje supplied Japan with iron, technology, culture, literature. religion, craftsmen, etc. Baekje and Japan were inserparable. Japanese emperor admitted he had Baekje ancestry. King Geunchogo gave Japan the 7 bladed sword as a symbolic gesture of anointing a knight to fight for Baekje. The relationship was mutual. In all the aid efforts, Japan not once requested anything from Baekje, in form of land, compensation, or trading rights. It was as if the two countries shared destinies.

As I mentioned before, Japanese let Baekje crown prince lead the combined armies of Japan, baekje, against Silla. You usually dont let another countrys military leader take control of your army unless you acknowledgd their superiority. unless the Japanese are just mercenaries. But this is unlikely because Japanese ONLY sided with Baekje, even against superior forces like Goguryeo and China, and even after the Fall of Baekje, when baekje couldnt possibly offer anything in compensation.
Pekche-Japan relationship was manifestly useful for Japan. Your quote mentions stuff that Japan got from Pekche:
they must have got some benefit from Baekje, either in financial payment or cultural or technological support,
Baekje supplied Japan with iron, technology, culture, literature. religion, craftsmen, etc.

Japan had few alternatives. Develop domestic production, yes Japan was doing it - but Pekche was ahead all along. Find an alternative supplier? Silla and Kaya had less to offer than Pekche had. Koguryo had little more, and was much further. An option also pursued was opening direct relations with China, but besides the distance, China had less need of what Japan had to offer, so was less inclined to give.

About how Japan got it, you claim that:
"In all the aid efforts, Japan not once requested anything from Baekje, in form of land, compensation, or trading rights."

Precisely what were the contents of diplomatic messages between Pekche and Japan? Do any letters have corroborating reports in Japanese and Pekche annals - i. e. matching in what was brought, the content of what exactly was and was not written in letters etc? Did Pekche government state, in their domestic consumption propaganda, that what they sent Japan was "tribute"?
Did Pekche, before 663, officially recognize rulers of Japan as "Son of Heaven"?
 
Feb 2011
1,018
#88
The question of Baekje-Japanese relations will always be complicated by the early presence of Japonic speakers on the Korean peninsula. The fact that the Yayoi migrated to Japan from the Korean peninsula is not in dispute. The nature of their relationship with Koreanic speakers is in dispute. Korea was not as culturally or ethnically homogeneous in ancient times as it is in the present day. Comparative linguists such as Vovin, Unger, Beckwith, etc. have shown the presence of different languages or even language families on the Korean peninsula, of which they theorize Koreanic was only the latest and most influential. The actual situation may never be known, simply because it is very difficult, or even impossible, to validate who was Koreanic and who was Japonic in the Yayoi migration period.

With respect to recorded identity, however, Baekje claimed descent from Buyeo, thus connecting itself to Goguryeo. The Japanese emperors claimed a separate lineage from two gods, Amaterasu and Susanoo, whose cults also existed on the Korean peninsula, but were not connected to Buyeo; Susanoo in particular seems to have been associated with Silla, instead, while Amaterasu belongs to the general category of sun gods and goddesses worshiped across ancient East Asia. This indicates separate regional cultures and identities, which were nonetheless entangled due to coexistence in the same geographic area, before cultural and political forces probably relating to the expansion of Koreanic drove Japonic out to the islands. Beyond this, much of the debate seems to revolve around nationalism of the form "the Japanese emperor was of Korean descent," which is completely anachronistic and not a historical matter.
 
#89
There is more info elucidating your comment about language. Apparently the Wa needed a translator to speak to Silla, but did not need translator to speak to Baekje or Goguryeo. This makes sense because Japan came from Baekje, Baekje came from Goguryeo, and Goguryeo came from Buyeo, in very general terms. But Silla came from the Huns, or at least a steppe nomad people from central Asia. But this is complicated by the fact that chinese records say the 3 korean kingdoms could communicate without a translator.

Also, there is well established evidence that southern Korea, Kyushu, and western Honshu were the same ethnic group in early prehistory.

Your mention of Susunoo makes me curious. It sounds a lot like Sosuno, the famous woman who founded Goguryeo with Jumong as the first queen of Goguryeo, and then when Jumong chose his son from another woman to become crown prince, she left Goguryeo and helped her own sons found Baekje. She is consideredmincredible to be involved in the founding of 2 great nations. Maybe theyre related?

In any case Ive learned much from consulting the book Paekche of Korea and Origin of Yamato Japan, which uses text from Nihon Saki to uncover more clues. Here is the full text.
PEAKCHE OF KOREA AND THE ORIGIN OF YAMATO JAPAN

Like I said earlier, there were princes of Yamato who were the ruler of Baekje AND Japan. Often, the assault on Baekje by Goguryeo is referred by the Yamato prince as attacks on HIS country. Authority of Baekje and Japan seems to be interchangeable between the Baekje and Yamato kings. As if they are the same clan.

The fact remains that : Japan stopped foreign archaeologists from studying the Gosashi tomb, reportedly the resting place of Emperor Jingū, in 1976. In 2008, Japan allowed limited access to foreign archaeologists. According to National Geographic News Japan "has kept access to the tombs restricted, prompting rumors that officials fear excavation would reveal bloodline links between the 'pure' imperial family and Korea—or that some tombs hold no royal remains at all".

So until Japan is ready to allow the full records of the tomb be revealed, we wont be able to confirm or disconfirm concrete facts about origin of Yamato clan.

But as the Horserider theory of Yamato origins attempted to explain, the presence of advanced calvarymen and armored soldiers from Korea would have helped one clan become dominant, the yamato clan. And this is supported by the sudden appearance of horsemen and civilization in tombs during the time Yamato started, in a land where there were no horses before. Except instead of Kaya, according to my previously linked book, there is evidence that points to Baekje being the benefactor.
 
Last edited:
Mar 2015
767
Europe
#90
Baekje came from Goguryeo, and Goguryeo came from Buyeo, in very general terms. But Silla came from the Huns, or at least a steppe nomad people from central Asia.
No. Pak Hyokkose came from Heaven, unlike the founders of Pekche and Koguryo. Except that while Ninigi no Mikoto came down from Heaven as an adult, Pak Hyokkose came down from Heaven as an egg that hatched.
Did it need brooding? How was it brooded?
What became of the shells? In Sparta, Helena was hatched from an egg in 13th century BC, and the shell pieces were preserved and extant in 2nd century AD.