Were the peopce treaties of Versailles the brutal rape of existing international law?

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,366
#21
I repeat.

The Vast majority of territory lost by Hungary was territory that had a minority of ethnic Hungarians. For the vast majority of Europeans the treaties gave greater self rule and independence than existed before.

How would the inclusion of large areas with only a minority of Hungarians been any more Just?

What percentage of the territory lost by Hungary would have been against Wilson's 14 pts? a very small number. How can your contention that the treaty was against the 14 pts be maintained in the face of that fact?
 
Oct 2014
155
London
#22
I repeat.

The Vast majority of territory lost by Hungary was territory that had a minority of ethnic Hungarians. For the vast majority of Europeans the treaties gave greater self rule and independence than existed before.

How would the inclusion of large areas with only a minority of Hungarians been any more Just?

What percentage of the territory lost by Hungary would have been against Wilson's 14 pts? a very small number. How can your contention that the treaty was against the 14 pts be maintained in the face of that fact?
You must prove that slovaks (at the time Slovaks were a minority in territory of modern Slovakia) and romanians (only 53% in Transylvania) would have voted for join Czechs or Romanians in a hypotetical referendum. You can't prove it, because democratic plebiscites did not happen, due to the political efforts of romania Czechs and Serbian politicians. In Voivodine Serbians were just a very little minority.

Hungarian state lost 72% of its former territory.
 
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Mar 2010
9,842
#23
Really complaining that the losers of a war had an unfair peace treaty forced onto them. What ever next, the sky the wrong shade of blue??? The ocean just a tad to salty for you???

Also what international law are you referring to this is 1918, so no League of Nations, the Geneva convention is the only thing I can think of and that has nothing to do with peace treaties.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,366
#24
Your Wrong about nobles prizes in Science

Germany up to 1914 - 14
France up to 1914 - 12
Britain up to 1914 - 5
US up to 1914 - 2


"gaining more in science than Britain, France, Russia, and the United States combined."

I make it 19 v 14.
 
Oct 2014
155
London
#25
Really complaining that the losers of a war had an unfair peace treaty forced onto them. What ever next, the sky the wrong shade of blue??? The ocean just a tad to salty for you???

Every third ethnic Hungarian lived under foreign rule. 13 of the 20 largest ethnic Hungarian cities were passed to foreign countries. The anti-Hungarian laws and sentiments is a living problem until this day.

There were a difference between Western type of border changes and "eastern type" of border chganges. In the Western World (catholic-protestant civilization) the sanctity of private properties are an evidence. However private property is not evidence for countries with eastern culture. Unlike in the west, the Confiscaton of private real estates houses private factories infields etc on ethnic basis were "normal" thing for Eastern countries (balkan mentality)
 
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Oct 2014
155
London
#26

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,366
#27
The Vast majority of territory lost by Hungary was territory that had a minority of ethnic Hungarians. As such the changes were broadly in line with Wilson's 14 pts. Original size of Hungary before the treaty is of no consequence what so ever.

The areas were mostly of a Hungarian minority. As such under Wilson's 14 pts you can reasonably expect that they would not be part of Hungary.

There were no international laws regarding self determination at the time and as the argument that the treaties broke existing international law are wrong.
 
Oct 2014
155
London
#28
The Vast majority of territory lost by Hungary was territory that had a minority of ethnic Hungarians. As such the changes were broadly in line with Wilson's 14 pts. Original size of Hungary before the treaty is of no consequence what so ever.

The areas were mostly of a Hungarian minority. As such under Wilson's 14 pts you can reasonably expect that they would not be part of Hungary.

There were no international laws regarding self determination at the time and as the argument that the treaties broke existing international law are wrong.
Wrong with full of preconceptions based on your pure fantasy. It did not based on People's self-determination (democratic secret ballots) Romanians were only in 3% majority (53%) and get more territory than present-day Hungarian state. Slovaks were minority (40%) in Slovakia, Serbs were a very little minority (15%).

And you try to propose (your pure fantasy) that all Romanians wanted to join to the poor backward Romania....
 
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Sep 2014
234
FR
#29
The Treaties of Versailles and Trianon were as legal as any peace treaty to end a war. They were certainly based on Wilson;s 14 points , the key word BASED ON, not entirely dictated by. The Ethnic makeup and central and eastern Europe was complex and easy borders were impossible. Austria-Hungarian Empire was finished and it was a Chaotic situation, and the Entente to some extent had to accept the situation on the ground as there were armies and troops deployed that could not be moved without fielding large armies which was politically impossible. There was certainly more justice than the treaty of Brest-Livosk or the treaty at the End of the Franco-Prussian war. Treaties are often accompanied by a verbage of propaganda about justice and self determination, and Versallies and Trianon treaties have been held up as not living up to their "principles". They didnt but treaties almost always didnt. They did make some attempt and got closer than most. But given the situation any solution would have had warts. Serious warts.

Most of this Document is hysterical ranting of dubious validity. The Berlin Baghdad railway it's like the Templars a popular conspiracy theory fodder but the reality was it would hardy made any impact of world affairs.
Based on Wilson 14 points that denied the defeated their right of self-determination, made a mockery of the Fourteen Points, and enlarged the British, French, Italian, and Japanese empires by a million square miles and tens of millions of subjects.
Did you even read the points?
1. "Open covenants of peace, openly arrived at, after which there shall be no private international understandings of any kind but diplomacy shall proceed always frankly and in the public view."
But South Tyrol was given to Italy under a secret treaty with Britain in 1915, and all German islands in the North Pacific were given to Japan to comply with a secret treaty with Britain in 1917.
2. "Absolute freedom of navigation upon the seas, outside territorial waters, alike in peace and in war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or in part by international action for the enforcement of international covenants."
It was dropped by Wilson at the insistence of the British.
3. "The removal, of all economic barriers and the establishment of equality of trade conditions among all the nations consenting to the peace and associating themselves for its maintenance."
But Germany was denied the right to enter a customs union with Austria and forced to grant unrestricted Allied access to her markets, while being denied equal access to Allied markets.
4. "Adequate guarantees given and taken that national armaments will be reduced to the lowest point consistent with domestic safety."
Germany was forced to disarm, but the Allies never did.
5. "free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims..."
This was trampled underfoot as the Allies scrambled to seize and confiscate every German colony as well as the private property of German citizens who lived there.
9. "A readjustment of the frontiers of Italy should be effected along clearly recognizable lines of nationality."
Yet, ceding South Tyrol all the way to the Brenner to Italy, to honor a secret treaty.
13. "An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations..."
But the Poland created at Paris held captive millions of Germans, Ukrainians, White Russians and Lithuanians.


Sorry but in Germany, Wilson is viewed as one of the biggest liar and hypocrite. The Germans had no idea that they were dealing with an American President, a man who has no regard for truths.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,366
#30
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country]List of Nobel laureates by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Germany (14)
Max von Laue, Physics, 1914
Wilhelm Wien, Physics, 1911
Otto Wallach, Chemistry, 1910
Albrecht Kossel, Physiology or Medicine, 1910
Karl Ferdinand Braun, Physics, 1909
Wilhelm Ostwald, born in then Russia, now Latvia, Chemistry, 1909
Paul Ehrlich, Physiology or Medicine, 1908
Eduard Buchner, Chemistry, 1907
Robert Koch, Physiology or Medicine, 1905
Philipp Lenard, born in then Austrian Empire, now Slovakia, Physics, 1905
Adolf von Baeyer, Chemistry, 1905
Hermann Emil Fischer, Chemistry, 1902
Emil Adolf von Behring, Physiology or Medicine, 1901
Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, Physics, 1901

France (12)
Alfred Werner*, Chemistry, 1913
Charles Richet, Physiology or Medicine, 1913
Alexis Carrel, Medicine, 1912
Paul Sabatier, Chemistry, 1912
Victor Grignard, Chemistry, 1912
Marie Curie, born in then Russian Empire, now Poland, Chemistry, 1911
Gabriel Lippmann, born in Luxembourg, Physics, 1908
Alphonse Laveran, Physiology or Medicine, 1907
Henri Moissan, Chemistry, 1906
Antoine Henri Becquerel, Physics, 1903
Pierre Curie, Physics, 1903
Marie Curie, born in then Russian Empire, now Poland, Physics, 1903

Britain (5)
Ernest Rutherford, born in New Zealand, Chemistry, 1908
J. J. Thomson, Physics, 1906
John Strutt, 3rd Baron Rayleigh, Physics, 1904
William Ramsay, Chemistry, 1904
Ronald Ross, Physiology or Medicine, 1902

US (2)
Theodore W. Richards, Chemistry, 1914
Albert A. Michelson, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1907

It's a minor point but I think you statement is clearly wrong
 

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