I already gave you sources and a detailed explanation behind them Jean. Perhaps you just don't understand what the sources I presented are nor appreciate their importance. For starters, do you not see the citations and passages given from the primary sources and their translations I've cited? Second, I've provided Tan Qixiang's map in post 13 (although a simplified version); who is the most authoritative figure on Chinese historical geography, certainly more authoritative than the random websites you are searching online, and you tell me I only have one low-detail map? Stating that online websites are not professional and utterly unreliable isn't being impolite, its stating a matter of fact. East Asian imperial extention are very understudied, whether they be Chinese or steppe empires; even in Chinese or Japanese sources, let alone in western languages. Tan Qixiang's maps (which I already cited for the Western Han in post 13) are actually professional, but they date to the 1970s and did not take into consideration of the Han outer walls found after these publications (even Tan's published maps left out some major areas of control in history, such as the Jurchen Jin controlling Mongolia in the 12th century, which isn't shown in any maps, period); and none of his maps really shows a particular dynasty at its largest in a single year, but only their normal state at a span of time. As for low-detailed map in another language, Tan's map aside, even the Japanese map is not low-detailed if you can actually read the language in question, certainly more detailed than the wordless patches of color you presented. As for disagreement, care to point out what the disagreements are? The Wuhuan being in another color is far from disagreeing with "half" of my points, if you understood what my points are that is.Again, I'm not going to try to argue any historical points, as I have very little experience with Han history (I'll leave the Achaemenids be, as you're right that our figures are relatively close), I'm just trying to put them to a map. Perhaps you could try treating this as a polite historical discussion/exchange instead of a debate you seem to be determined to win. All I was asking here is that you give some semblance of a source for or even logic behind including this or that region within the purview of the Han state, contrary to most maps and articles online, instead of just declaring it to be the case, showing a sourceless, low-detail map in another language which disagrees with half your points as an apparent standard to fit to, and adopting a confrontational tone when I don't necessarily accept every single declaration at face value.
You speak as if I haven't already provided sources, I did. You just ignored their details without asking why.Maps and articles online are very often wrong, as I understand, but without some sort of support your word alone -- of a random stranger on an internet forum -- isn't any more reliable. You have done this for regions I've asked about, which is appreciated, but it's highly unproductive to assume that every single statement you make without an even rudimentary explanation will be accepted without question in every conversation you participate in.
I've already cited two maps in more detail than all the maps you've provided, and their authority is a level beyond what you've shown. If you have any other doubts of any of the region I talked about, all you need to do is ask for the source of a particular region and I'll gladly provide you the primary sources and the passage in verbatim. So what are you questioning Han authority of? Do you want the source for the Protectorate of the Western Region ruling the 36 states, or the Han rule of Korea (which I've already provided sources on).
I already told you the Wuhuan was located in Eastern Inner Mongolia, along the Hulun Buir region. It's not my problem that you are not familiar with modern East Asian geography. I do not have access to Google at the moment, so I can't give you visual details. In any case, the discrepancy lies in territories in Western Mongolia and Qinghai, they are steppe zone and boundaries are fuzzy. I'll show you what I mean when I go back to the states where Google is accessible at the end of this month.In any case, I did broadly extend the Han border to the Mongolian Great Wall as shown in your map (although I do realize now I missed a small spot in the very north-west), as well as territory far north of the Han Great Wall further east in the Wuhuan region (again, you didn't, until now, post a single map, link, or description even outlining where you thought this office of Wuhuan was). Regardless, though, all of these points are relatively minor, so even including every single region you argue should be included in the map (without ephemeral occupations, as you've argued, and I generally agree, we shouldn't count towards the Achaemenid figure), we're still more than 1 million square kilometres short of 7,700,000, and 400-600,000 off from 7-7.2 million:
In regard to the Han conquest of Talas in 36 BC:
明日，前至郅支城都赖水上，离城三里，止营傅陈。望见单于城上立五采幡帜，数百人披甲乘城，又出百余骑往来驰城下，步兵百余人夹门鱼鳞陈，讲习用兵。城上 人更招汉军曰“斗来！”百余骑驰赴营，营皆张弩持满指之，骑引却。颇遣吏士射城门骑步兵，骑步兵皆入。延寿、汤令军闻鼓音皆薄城下，四周围城，各有所守， 穿堑，塞门户，卤楯为前，戟弩为后，卬射城中楼上人，楼上人下走。土城外有重木城，从木城中射，颇杀伤外人。外人发薪烧木城。夜，数百骑欲出外，迎射杀 之。
Translation: After one day, the enemy fortress was reached at the banks of Talas River. At a distance of three li from the city, a camp was set. Looking at the Chanyu’s fortress from a distance, one could see atop its walls 5 colored banners and streamers, with several hundred armored men on the ramparts. There were over a hundred cavalry galloping out of the city, along with over a hundred infantry drilling in fish scale formation at the gates. The people atop the city wall shouted toward the Han army “Come fight!”A hundred cavalry galloped toward the Han camp, but the camp was bristling with crossbows, so the cavalry retreated. An order was given for soldiers to shoot at the cavalry and infantry at the gates, so that each one of the latter went back into the city. YangShou and YangLing’s division attacked the city from all four sides. Each took part in defending, tunneling, and blocking up arrow ports. Crossbowmen and halberdiers advanced behind pavise shields, all the while shooting at the people atop the ramparts until the defenders were driven from the walls. However, a heavy wooden stockade surrounded the outside of the fortress, from which the defenders shot from, wounding or killing those outside. The attackers responded by using torches to set the wooden walls afire. By night, several hundred enemy cavalry rode out but were shot to death.
初，单于闻汉兵至，欲去，疑康居怨己，为汉内应，又闻乌孙诸国兵皆发，自以无所之。郅支已出，复还，曰：“不如坚守。汉兵远来，不能久攻。”单于乃被甲在 楼上，诸阏氏夫人数十皆以弓射外人。外人射中单于鼻，诸夫人颇死。单于下骑，传战大内。夜过半，木城穿，中人却入土城，乘城呼。时，康居兵万余骑分为十余 处，四面环城，亦与相应和。夜，数奔营，不利，辄却。平明，四面火起，吏士喜，大呼乘之，钲鼓声动地。康居兵引却。汉兵四面推卤楯，并入土城中。单于男女 百余人走入大内。汉兵纵火，吏士争入，单于被创死。军候假丞杜勋斩单于首，得汉使节二及谷吉等所赍帛书。诸卤获以畀得者。凡斩阏氏、太子、名王以下千五百 一十八级，生虏百四十五人，降虏千余人，赋予城郭诸国所发十五王。
Translation: In the beginning, Chanyu wanted to flee to Kangju but, due to past grievances, was afraid they are in a plot with the Han. He also heard that the Wusun and other states sent troops to support the Han expedition and realized he had nowhere to go. ZhiZhi says “It is better to guard the citadel. The Han soldiers traveled far, and could not continue the siege for an extended period”. The Chanyu thus put on his armor and went atop the ramparts, along with several tens of his concubines to shoot at the attackers with bows. The Chanyu’s nose was hit, and all his concubines were killed. The Chanyu then went down from the walls and directed the siege from within the citadel. After half the night the wooden wall was penetrated and the Chinese was at the base of the earthen wall, while the defenders shouted alerts. During this time, over ten thousand Kangju cavalry arrived. Divided into over ten divisions, they attacked the Han army from four sides around the city to support defenders. By night, their attack having failed, the Kangju galloped back into their camp. By daybreak, the city was set afire from all sides, boosting Han morale while the defenders bellowed a great cry. The drums shook the earth. Seeing this, the Kangju soldiers withdrew. The Han soldiers pushed pavises towards the wall from all four sides. The Chanyu’s males and female followers, more than 100 all told, retreated back into the citadel. The Han soldiers set fires and charged within, killing the Chanyu...518 were slaughtered, 145 were captured, and over 1,000 submitted, they were distributed to the 15 kings of the various states that participated on the expedition. -Book of Han
I already told you I don't have access to google at the moment, what I did is point out you are leaving out territories, twice, and I already provided the sources and explanations on that. Only now did you change your map to address this issue so don't tell me I didn't present an alternative. If you are so sensitive to think that pointing out problems in your map as "patronizing tirades" perhaps history forums truly isn't for you. I just didn't give you a visual clue; that's all, if I didn't give you a clue at all, you wouldn't have made any changes to your maps at all would you?If you have an idea of where that missing territory is then feel free to make your own map -- again, Google Earth is free, and even MS paint is pretty decent for that sort of thing -- instead of vaguely and incompletely criticizing minute details of mine without presenting anything resembling an alternative. For my part, I'm not interested in being on the receiving end of arrogant, patronizing tirades in return for transcribing maps and information as I find them, so for the foreseeable future I'm quite done with this thread.