West Europe has a BIG debt problem. Not the USA.

Feb 2015
90
south Slavic guy
#1
West Eu.jpg



You can see on this screenshot. The speculation is that it's the USA with the biggest debt, but when you look at these numbers you can understand that the actual debt problems are in West Europe and it's welfare system that is abused by foreign citizens.
USA owns most of its credit. That's not the case with France, UK, Germany.
You could see that with this kind of politics it will be a short ride for the big Western European countries.
Immigration at this level (and with this system) is totally unsustainable for the near future.
I wish the germans, british and french reform their systems before it's too late.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
12,766
Europix
#2
West Europe and it's welfare system that is abused by foreign citizens.
Foreigners are some 5-6-7 % of the population of EU.

And BTW, there are foreign citizens that work in EU, You know. Not few of them with high wage -> high contributions ...

I wish the germans, british and french reform their systems because it's too late.
If it's too late, doesn't matter if they change it or not, isn't it ?

Immigration at this level (and with this system) is totally unsustainable for the near future.
And here we go, and again ... and again ... and again ... and again ...

Out of curiosity:
1. What do You understand by "immigration"?
2. Which is "this level"?

USA owns most of its credit. That's not the case with France, UK, Germany.
Who owes what, or who owes who, is a tricky question. For example, Germany owns 400 bn of US's debt, while US owns some 170 bn of Germany's debt. German debt is decreasing for almost a decade (under any POV You want to take: gross figure, % of the GDP, sum per capita ... )

all in all, generalisations like "West Europe" is so generalising that it's totally useless as a base for a discussion.

___
btw, where that figures come from? (I am asking because in terms of population, for example, there are a couple of significant differences to what I have as figures)
 
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Feb 2015
90
south Slavic guy
#3
Foreigners are some 5-6-7 % of the population of EU.

And BTW, there are foreign citizens that work in EU, You know. Not few of them with high wage -> high contributions ...

That's definitely a speculation which is not true. I've been living in UK and Germany (not in big cities at that). The % of foreigners can range anywhere between 20 to 60%.

7% is just simply... not true by ANY eye test on the streets.


If it's too late, doesn't matter if they change it or not, isn't it ?
The model (more capitalist, less tax) can be changed at ANY time which will greatly contribute to the overall state of the economies.


1. What do You understand by "immigration"?

Immigration. You can search it in the dictionaries.


2. Which is "this level"?

Absolutely unsustainable level. Level which will cause irreparable damage to the economies in only a couple of years. I repeat. If it's not too late.



Who owes what, or who owes who, is a tricky question. For example, Germany owns 400 bn of US's debt, while US owns some 170 bn of Germany's debt. German debt is decreasing for almost a decade (under any POV You want to take: gross figure, % of the GDP, sum per capita ... )

all in all, generalisations like "West Europe" is so generalising that it's totally useless as a base for a discussion.

Yes. There is some nuance to it, definitely. But when you look at these numbers, they are almost the same for ALL big countries from West Europe.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
12,766
Europix
#4
not true by ANY eye test on the streets.
"Eye test" is totally irrelevant from that POV. Foreigners that benefit from welfare system are registered, their number is known, it figures in official statistic. Welfare doesn't function on "eye tests".

Immigration. You can search it in the dictionaries.
Thank You. I didn't asked the definition, I asked what do You understand by "immigration"?

Yes. There is some nuance to it, definitely. But when you look at these numbers, they are almost the same for ALL big countries from West Europe.
There is a lot more than "nuances" and "almost the same".

Just the most obvious example: very soon, UK's economical, financial, international position will dramatically change (whatever it will be for the best or for the rest), as it's status dramatically changed.

Another, less obvious, is that Germany owns more foreign debts than foreign investors owning German debt.
 
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sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,198
Sydney
#5
I've been following the debt figure for a fair while now
.......it's complicated :zany::zany::zany:

for a start much of the European countries debt is held by other European countries ,
often a citizen of let say Belgium would have his money in a German bank who invest in Belgian Bonds
French like to put their money out of the reach of the French fisc into the dark tunnels of Luxembourg banking system

Italy and Japan have mountains of debt but it's held by their own pension funds ,
there will be hell later but hey who care if you steal from the old folks

after a lot of head-scratching , Europe sovereign debts are marginally OK ,
some countries will have to do some begging but the European bank which back the Euro is pretty much debt free

the US sovereign debt problem is compounded by
a massive trade imbalance ,
a bad level of local finances
a high level of personal debt
a ridiculous budget both in numbers and in process
a dysfunctional political system , broken beyong repair at all levels
 
Oct 2013
12,766
Europix
#6
I've been following the debt figure for a fair while now
.......it's complicated :zany::zany::zany:

for a start much of the European countries debt is held by other European countries ,
often a citizen of let say Belgium would have his money in a German bank who invest in Belgian Bonds
French like to put their money out of the reach of the French fisc into the dark tunnels of Luxembourg banking system

Italy and Japan have mountains of debt but it's held by their own pension funds ,
there will be hell later but hey who care if you steal from the old folks

after a lot of head-scratching , Europe sovereign debts are marginally OK ,
some countries will have to do some begging but the European bank which back the Euro is pretty much debt free

...
BBC has suggestive inter-active chart on that. It isn't that extensive, but it's suggestive on how complex (and timesome misleading) is the whole "foreign debt" thing.

Eurozone debt web: Who owes what to whom?
 
Jan 2010
4,031
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#7
That's definitely a speculation which is not true. I've been living in UK and Germany (not in big cities at that). The % of foreigners can range anywhere between 20 to 60%.

7% is just simply... not true by ANY eye test on the streets.




The model (more capitalist, less tax) can be changed at ANY time which will greatly contribute to the overall state of the economies.





Immigration. You can search it in the dictionaries.





Absolutely unsustainable level. Level which will cause irreparable damage to the economies in only a couple of years. I repeat. If it's not too late.






Yes. There is some nuance to it, definitely. But when you look at these numbers, they are almost the same for ALL big countries from West Europe.
The problem with immigration into Europe, as into the US, is that (a) it is not under control by the various governments and (b) immigrants are a net drain because they are not permitted to work but are given some social welfare. If these problems are solved, immigration will be the solution to the problem of rapidly aging populations, which is to say the failure of reproduction to reach replacement levels.

The aging population is a problem for the entire developed world, including China--although China's was self-imposed by the disastrous one-child policy..

If the developed countries can put the immigrants to work, it won't cause irreparable damage--quite the reverse.
 

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
3,468
Slovenia
#8
Everyone is permitted to work but they are not in EU to work but to enjoy their human rights, free money included. EU left supports them in that.

Developed world can't put muslims and Africans to work. It will say ka-boom in max ten years from now. Look for signs in France.
 
Likes: sherdogger
Jan 2010
4,031
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#9
I've been following the debt figure for a fair while now
.......it's complicated :zany::zany::zany:

for a start much of the European countries debt is held by other European countries ,
often a citizen of let say Belgium would have his money in a German bank who invest in Belgian Bonds
French like to put their money out of the reach of the French fisc into the dark tunnels of Luxembourg banking system

Italy and Japan have mountains of debt but it's held by their own pension funds ,
there will be hell later but hey who care if you steal from the old folks

after a lot of head-scratching , Europe sovereign debts are marginally OK ,
some countries will have to do some begging but the European bank which back the Euro is pretty much debt free

the US sovereign debt problem is compounded by
a massive trade imbalance ,
a bad level of local finances
a high level of personal debt
a ridiculous budget both in numbers and in process
a dysfunctional political system , broken beyong repair at all levels
US government debt held by China is a problem for China, not for the US.
Everyone is permitted to work but they are not in EU to work but to enjoy their human rights, free money included. EU left supports them in that.

Developed world can't put muslims and Africans to work. It will say ka-boom in max ten years from now. Look for signs in France.
I hear that, but that problem is not caused by immigration--it's caused by the welfare policies of European countries.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,198
Sydney
#10
It's caused by years of government overspending , hoping inflation will shrink the debt.
Now there is very little inflation , some economists call it the "secular stagnation"
Secular stagnation theory - Wikipedia

It propose that recent decades of growth were temporary , the normal is no or little growth

That leave politicians in some difficulty ,
Democracy election cycle make it difficult to get elected promising austerity ( democracy has some very serious failing when it come to do anything beside distributing lollies)

for established parties the solution has been concerned or cheerful denial with the adoption of the ostrich position ,
after all they only have to pass a few years muddling a problem which exist for forty years , then pass the parcel to whomever