Western Regions.Independence states or a part of Han Dynasty

May 2012
322
Heaven
I think it is debate topic even in decades in future.Two year ago,one scientists group of Chinese government claimed that Han Dynasty controlled Western Region states by a Protectorate of Western Regions from 60BC.It is a reason why Taagepera gave 6,000,000 km2 and 6,500,000 km2 for Maximum area of Western and Eastern Han(with around 1,000,000 km2-1,200,000 km2 of Western Regions).However,other historians like Zhu Shuyuan said that "laughable" and these officers "only exist on paper".
Historians Dismiss Chinese Claims to Xinjiang Based on Han Dynasty Literature
In my opinion,Han Dynasty never controlled even a half all 36 states which Ban Gu recorded in his books, like Zhu Shuyuan showed,they never got any tax money from these states.Each states had an individual king and Protectorate of Western Regions himself never set any king.These states spoke their tradition language and used their regulations .No where spoke or wrote by Chinese text or imitated Han regulations,too(Han Dynasty didn't has a code like Roman).
Another point is about military right.I wanted to talk about it in my old topic from answer of heavenkhan but i had so little time.He said that Protectorate can controlle armies of states but it isn;t true.He hadn't this right.All warriors who took part in campains of Han only with agreement of their king.In fact,their king could reject this.In case of that,Protrctorate can't do anything.Morever,No less than 10 times Han messengers at Western Region died.
For hackneye,until now,there isn't any Chinese bamboo slips in Han Dynasty age which found in Xinjiang.All slips from this regions dated at least from Jin Dynasty.No Han Dynasty cash had been found at there,too.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
I think it is debate topic even in decades in future.Two year ago,one scientists group of Chinese government claimed that Han Dynasty controlled Western Region states by a Protectorate of Western Regions from 60BC.It is a reason why Taagepera gave 6,000,000 km2 and 6,500,000 km2 for Maximum area of Western and Eastern Han(with around 1,000,000 km2-1,200,000 km2 of Western Regions).However,other historians like Zhu Shuyuan said that "laughable" and these officers "only exist on paper".
Historians Dismiss Chinese Claims to Xinjiang Based on Han Dynasty Literature
First of all, the vast majority of mainstream western and Japanese historian accepts Han rule of Tarim Basin. The Cambridge History of China is the most representative of such scholarship. The website you gave is not even academical and looks like propaganda itself. This so called Zhu Shuyuan, may I ask what representative work has he published? I know all the major scholarship of Han history as well as historians writing them and this little known individual is certainly not one of them.

For hackneye,until now,there isn't any Chinese bamboo slips in Han Dynasty age which found in Xinjiang.All slips from this regions dated at least from Jin Dynasty.No Han Dynasty cash had been found at there,too.
Are you looking for archeological evidence? You do realize an actual seal of Li Chong, the last protector general of the Pacified West in the Western Han has been found in 1928 in the Xinhe county of Aksu? Another seal titled "Han Seal of the Qiang Office" 汉归义羌长印 has also been found. Nevermind the huge excavated city with Han pottery hosting these seals.
During the Qing, in 1729, the armies of Yue Zhongqi uncovered Sir Pei's stone inscriptions in Hami from the year 137. So Han era inscriptions in Xinjiang were found as early as the Qing dynasty and Qianlong even used it to compare his accomplishments with the previous dynasty.

In my opinion,Han Dynasty never controlled even a half all 36 states which Ban Gu recorded in his books, like Zhu Shuyuan showed,they never got any tax money from these states.Each states had an individual king and Protectorate of Western Regions himself never set any king.These states spoke their tradition language and used their regulations .No where spoke or wrote by Chinese text or imitated Han regulations,too(Han Dynasty didn't has a code like Roman).
You are basically saying that anything outside of direct bureaucratic control is not real control. Then by such logic, the Mongols never controlled the Tarim Basin or Tibet either, because they never collected tax directly from most of these regions, nor did these states use the Mongol Yasa. Even many nomadic people of Russia did not use the Russian code during most of the existence of the Russian Empire. The same can be said of much of the territory of the Spanish and Portuguese Empires, or even the Indian Princely States of the British Empire. I doubt even the strongest Indian nationalists would deny the Indian Princely States were part of the British Empire.


According to the Imperial Gazetteer of India one significant difference between “dominion” and “suzerainty” was that of court of law: in case of British India, its law was subject to the legislation provided by the British Parliament; while contrary to that, the courts of princely states functioned under the direct authority of the rulers of the state which helped them maintain their partial sovereignty. This meant that the princely states were not bound or forced to follow the law of British India or any other law enacted by the British Parliament. This in my opinion provided these states to enjoy partial sovereignty as these states can make and have their own laws.
Academia.edu - Share research
Hasan Ahmed: "Were the Indian princely states particularly the larger ones like Hyderabad, Kashmir, Mysore, Jodhpur sovereign? How was there status affected by the end of the British Raj and the lapse of the paramountcy? "


Another point is about military right.I wanted to talk about it in my old topic from answer of heavenkhan but i had so little time.He said that Protectorate can controlle armies of states but it isn;t true.He hadn't this right.All warriors who took part in campains of Han only with agreement of their king.In fact,their king could reject this.In case of that,Protrctorate can't do anything.Morever,No less than 10 times Han messengers at Western Region died.
Don't challenge me on sources you haven't even read. Hou Hanshu Biography of Ban Chao mentioned plenty of cases with just that, kings who rejected Ban Chao were executed to make an example to the others. In 85, the king of Shule (Kashgar), Zhong, rebelled against the Han, Ban Chao put another king to the throne and attacked the rebel, in the next year, he killed Zhong and destroyed the remainder of his soldiers. In 89, Ban Chao send 20,000 forces composed of allies (including Kashgar and Khotan) and attacked Yarkand, subjugating it. In 91, Ban Chao abolished the king of Kucha Youliduo and brought him back to the capital. In 94, Ban Chao also executed the king of Karasahr for killing the previous protector of pacified west in revolt. All 55 states of the Tarim sent hostages to the Han court after that. Throughout this time, not only has Ban Chao demonstrated the ability to kill rebel kings, he also called upon the armies of the various states and attacked any state who opposed this order and killed their king to make a point.
 
May 2012
322
Heaven
...The same can be said of much of the territory of the Spanish and Portuguese Empires, or even the Indian Princely States of the British Empire ...
It seems be you don't know anything about European history.Spanish never collected tax from Aztec and Inca?So laughable.Terrible knowledge.They captured many tons gold each year and became reich from these territories.
For example,here is an description of Bernard Castillo - one conquisttador under Hernan Cortez:
...Serious complaints were made about this, and Cortes knew no other remedy than to appoint two men of business-like habits and of well-known honesty, to examine each demand and tax the amount...
- History conquest America of Span-
inscription and goods are enough to claim that you rule a region.Funny.
Roman placed a very strong base at Muziris - Kodungallur,India with various kinds of Roman good,even a Roman church and a Temple of Augustus.They had a large amount of goods and a inscription in Mathura,India.So according to your definition,we must see India is a part of Roman empire.
I said that Han Dynasty never controlled up to 18(half number countries of Western Regions) because there are far states where Han never placed any garrison,officer or advisor.Even affect of Roman in India was much more stronger than affect of Han Dynasty to states in extreme Western Region.They could rule around 10 - 16 states.
About Taagepera ,he is clearly untruthfull.How did he calculate with his definition?
He added all areas of all states in Western Regions into Han Dynasty,even both Wushun - a big independent state .Moreover,he added all areas between two road of Western Region(Sothern and Northern Road) although a large portion in this place is desert where never had dwellers.He added all area along coast of Vietnam from Quảng Ninh to Phú Yên,too while Han Dynaty never controlled these sites even never went to Hải Phòng.By this way,he blowed up territory of Western Han and Eastern Han to 6,500,000 square km and 6,000,000 square km respectively.However,he left around 600 - 800,000 square km of Garamantes out area of Roman empire while Pliny,Tacitus,Cassius Dio and other claimed that it was under Roman domination.Roman taxed Garamantes,built many constructions at here,Garamantes supplied troops for Roman empire,even Roman army often presented at here but it isn't Roman territory simple by Saint Taagepera don't allow this.Like it,he left tribes of Morocco and south - west Algeria(southern Atlas) about 500,000 square km out of Roman domination.He left Iberia and Caucasus out to Roman,too although there are inscriptions which strongly defined affect of Roman.Totally,1,200,000 - 1,500,000 square km was left out Roman territory but these regions are suitable with Taagepera definition completely.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
...The same can be said of much of the territory of the Spanish and Portuguese Empires, or even the Indian Princely States of the British Empire ...
It seems be you don't know anything about European history.Spanish never collected tax from Aztec and Inca?So laughable.Terrible knowledge.They captured many tons gold each year and became reich from these territories.
For example,here is an description of Bernard Castillo - one conquisttador under Hernan Cortez:
...Serious complaints were made about this, and Cortes knew no other remedy than to appoint two men of business-like habits and of well-known honesty, to examine each demand and tax the amount...
- History conquest America of Span-
Yes, you know so much about European history that you are completely oblivious to the fact that Spain ruled more than just the Aztecs and Incas. This is the Spanish Empire presented at its largest:

1554512948412.png

Except Spain had virtually no real control over any area north of southern Texas.


In the case of the Comanches, incorporation failed to occur during Spain's colonial era (1680-1821). The independence of the Comanches can be related to a number of external and internal factors. External variables include Spain's lack of financial commitment to the region (Scholes 1975), a dearth of colonial personnel (Johns 1975), and an ongoing geopolitical rivalry with France (Weber 1992). As will be shown, the most critical internal variable relates to the decentralized political organization of the Comanches. Additionally, a region containing few valuable resources can forestall incorporation into the political economy of a seemingly more powerful government (Chase-Dunn and Hall 1997:72). ....

Lacking easy access to Spanish markets, two of the Comanches' divisions maintained stable trading relations with non-Spanish Europeans and a lucrative raiding economy against Spanish settlers in Texas (Hamalainen 1998:505). Miller (1975:172-73) noted that the divisions residing along the Arkansas River traded captives, horses, and hides to the French for firearms, textiles, and metal objects. ...

In 1787 the Spanish organized various Native tribes, including the Comanches, to fight the Apaches (Slatta 1998:88). With this military help, the Comanches outmaneuvered the remaining Apaches by removing them from their homeland and by controlling their alliances (Smith 1995; Slatta 1998). According to one Spanish official, at the hands of the Comanches, "All the [Apache] adults of both sexes may be excluded from this mercy [sold into slavery], notwithstanding that it appears to us that everyone captured will be destined to suffer death" (Thomas 1932:336)

--
Martha McCollough Reasons for the Marginal Incorporation of the Comanches by the Spanish



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In comparison, the Han had the ability to depose rulers of the Tarim Basin who were hostile and mobilize their soldiers, Spain couldn't do that with the Apache and Commanche and were constantly raided by them.
By the same standards we use for Spain, the Han Empire would have been even larger. The various Xianbei tribes in Eastern Inner Mongolia were all subjects of the Han dynasty and helped the Han raid the Xiongnu. The Qiang tribes of eastern Qinghai, the Sam Han tribes of southern Korea, and even the Wa state of today's Japan were also of this nature in their relationship to the Han. Even the entire Xiongnu Empire covering all of Mongolia and part of Siberia was a Han vassal at one point.

inscription and goods are enough to claim that you rule a region
.Funny.
Roman placed a very strong base at Muziris - Kodungallur,India with various kinds of Roman good,even a Roman church and a Temple of Augustus.They had a large amount of goods and a inscription in Mathura,India.So according to your definition,we must see India is a part of Roman empire.
I said that Han Dynasty never controlled up to 18(half number countries of Western Regions) because there are far states where Han never placed any garrison,officer or advisor.Even affect of Roman in India was much more stronger than affect of Han Dynasty to states in extreme Western Region.They could rule around 10 - 16 states.
About Taagepera ,he is clearly untruthfull.How did he calculate with his definition?
Inscriptions explicitly stating a polity ruled the region the inscription was in, archaeological evidence in the form of Han seals (with explicit writing that the owner of such a seal was a Han subject), as well as Han fortresses built in the area, along with recorded historical evidence certainly does prove imperial rule of a region or you might as well doubt the imperial extent of a good half of empires in history (prove to me for example that Alexander the Great controlled any part of India, because there are far less evidence than there are for Han rule of Xinjiang). Answer me, do you think the Indian Princely States were part of the British Empire? If you answer yes, there is no reason to deny Han control of the Tarim Basin as the nature is the same, anything else would just be a double standard.

He added all areas of all states in Western Regions into Han Dynasty,even both Wushun - a big independent state .Moreover,he added all areas between two road of Western Region(Sothern and Northern Road) although a large portion in this place is desert where never had dwellers.He added all area along coast of Vietnam from Quảng Ninh to Phú Yên,too while Han Dynaty never controlled these sites even never went to Hải Phòng.By this way,he blowed up territory of Western Han and Eastern Han to 6,500,000 square km and 6,000,000 square km respectively.However,he left around 600 - 800,000 square km of Garamantes out area of Roman empire while Pliny,Tacitus,Cassius Dio and other claimed that it was under Roman domination.Roman taxed Garamantes,built many constructions at here,Garamantes supplied troops for Roman empire,even Roman army often presented at here but it isn't Roman territory simple by Saint Taagepera don't allow this.Like it,he left tribes of Morocco and south - west Algeria(southern Atlas) about 500,000 square km out of Roman domination.He left Iberia and Caucasus out to Roman,too although there are inscriptions which strongly defined affect of Roman.Totally,1,200,000 - 1,500,000 square km was left out Roman territory but these regions are suitable with Taagepera definition completely.
It doesn't seem you are too familiar with the history of the Wusun either. By 65 BC, the Han official Chang Hui established agricultural garrisons in the Wusun state; the Wusun king Wengui Mi appointed his half Chinese son (by the Han princess Jieyou) as imperial heir. After Wengui died in 60 BC, the Wusun aristocrats appointed another king instead. Princess Jieyou and the new Wusun king Kuangwang split the Wusun state into two. The greater part of the Wusun was hence ruled by Jieyou princess and her half Chinese son, both subject to the Han. Whereas the smaller part of the Wusun was then ursurped by another royalty named Wu Jiutu who also submitted to the Han. By 60 BC, the two Wusun states were hence essentially dominated by the Han, and had to send royal hostages to the Han court.
There are oasis states spread throughout the Taklamakan desert and the Han controlled them all, the Han ruled it in the same way that later regimes ruled Xinjiang. Whether its desert territory does not change that, or by the same logic the PRC doesn't rule the Tarim Basin either because its a desert. Furthermore, the Han Empire at its largest was well over 6,500,000 sq km, if you include temporary military conquests (considering people counted the brief Achaemenid rule of Greece) as well for in 89 AD, Dou Xian conquered the center of today's Mongolia and left his inscription at Yanran Mountain north of the Gobi desert.
 
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May 2012
322
Heaven
...By 65 BC, the Han official Chang Hui established agricultural garrisons in the Wusun state ...
Where are garrisons?How many troops at these?Until now,there haven't yet had Han camps or garrisons that are found in Wusun.Moreover,if there were military base( I really doubt that they weren't existent),they were abadoned rapidly.Besides,In 1901,8 Europe nations advanced to China,defeated Yihetuan,robbed Beijing - capital of Qing dynasty,killed many inhabitants and then placed garrisons at China,forced Qing court accept requirements.So It means from 1901,all territory of Qing dynasty must be divided to 8 nations according to your argument?If you say no,Wusun can't be a region of Han Dynasty.
Inscription in Mongolian said that Dou Xian used troops of many nations(include South Xiongnu) to defeated North Xiongnu army.No any word said that it became terrority of Han Dynasty:
...鷹揚之校,螭虎之士,爰該六師,暨南單于,東胡烏桓,西戎氐羌,侯王君長之群,驍騎十萬...
...The fame flies high as eagle's wings,troops had (morale) like dragons and tigers,6 armies of South Xiongnu,Eastern Wu,Wu Huan,Western Barbarian Di ang Qiang,total 100,000 cavalries...

All armies of Han Dynasty and other tribes outside Xiongnu withdrawed afterthat.So it doesn't have any value to claim terrority of Han far as Mongolia.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,486
...By 65 BC, the Han official Chang Hui established agricultural garrisons in the Wusun state ...
Where are garrisons?How many troops at these?Until now,there haven't yet had Han camps or garrisons that are found in Wusun.Moreover,if there were military base( I really doubt that they weren't existent),they were abadoned rapidly.Besides,In 1901,8 Europe nations advanced to China,defeated Yihetuan,robbed Beijing - capital of Qing dynasty,killed many inhabitants and then placed garrisons at China,forced Qing court accept requirements.So It means from 1901,all territory of Qing dynasty must be divided to 8 nations according to your argument?If you say no,Wusun can't be a region of Han Dynasty.
The simple difference is that the Wusun accepted Han suzerainty and had to have the Han emperor acknowledging their new kings, the Qing didn't accept the suzerainty of any foreign states. You have yet to answer the question in regard to whether you consider the Indian Princely State as part of the British Empire, because its exactly comparable to the Han rule of Wusun and other Tarim states.

Inscription in Mongolian said that Dou Xian used troops of many nations(include South Xiongnu) to defeated North Xiongnu army.No any word said that it became terrority of Han Dynasty:
...鷹揚之校,螭虎之士,爰該六師,暨南單于,東胡烏桓,西戎氐羌,侯王君長之群,驍騎十萬...
...The fame flies high as eagle's wings,troops had (morale) like dragons and tigers,6 armies of South Xiongnu,Eastern Wu,Wu Huan,Western Barbarian Di ang Qiang,total 100,000 cavalries...
All armies of Han Dynasty and other tribes outside Xiongnu withdrawed afterthat.So it doesn't have any value to claim terrority of Han far as Mongolia.
The entire northern Xiongnu became a Han puppet state after 89 AD and this lasted until 94 AD when the new puppet ruler was killed by the locals and the Northern Xiongnu split apart. This is already recorded in many sources. For example, Zizhi Tongjian v.47: "初,北单于旣亡,其弟右谷蠡王于除鞬自立为单于,将众数千人止蒲类海,遣使款塞。窦宪请遣使立于除鞬为单于,置中郎将领护,如南单于故事...然上竟从宪策。"

"After the Northern Xiongnu Chanyu died, his younger brother the Left Guli King Yuchujian made himself Chanyu, send several thousand of his people to Bulei sea, and send an envoy to the frontier. Dou Xian petitioned to send an envoy to make Yuxujian the Chanyu, then establish the position of Zhonglangjiang to supervise them, just like the southern Chanyu...The emperor adopted Xian's strategy."

The Han sent an official within the Northern Xiongnu court to control their policies and moved the center of the Northern Xiongnu to a region near the Altai so its within the immediate striking range of the Han army. Much of Mongolia itself was probably still a grazing ground of the Xiongnu. Whether the Han army withdrew was not relevant, as the Han still established influence over the region, and besides plenty of maps count temporary conquests such as the Achaemenid control of the Greek Peninsula, Alexander's control of India, or the German control of Moscow so there is no need to apply a double standard to Han conquest of the steppe. When counting the Northern Xiongnu as well, the Han Empire was at least around 8,000,000-8,500,000 sq km.
 
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