What are the root causes of anti semitism in Enlightened Western world ?

Dec 2015
3,232
USA
@stevev

Good point.

When discussing the extreme anti Semitism of the Nazi regime , it tends to get overlooked tat antisemitism was alive and well in all of the allied countries. All of them closed their borders to Jewish refugees around 1942., I think. Many thousands more Jews could have been saved if other countries , such as US, UK, Canada, and Australia, would have accepted them.

There is also the plausible claim that Roosevelt knew about the death camps at least a year before the end of war. That the US (at least) did not bom the camps because they were not of strategic importance.
That claim has always niggled because of the vast complex of Auschwitz, which provided slave labour to some of Germany's largest companies .

Antisemitism has always been a' presence' in the US and Uk. I think Disraeli and the Rothschilds the UK may been exceptions to the norm.

There is a pretty good Hollywood movie about antisemitism in America called 'Gentlemen's Agreement'. !947 , directed by Elia Kazan. It's available free on Youtube

Gentleman's Agreement is a 1947 American drama film based on Laura Z. Hobson's best-selling novel of the same name. It concerns a journalist (played by Gregory Peck) who poses as a Jew to research an exposé on the widespread distrust and dislike of Jews in New York City and the affluent communities of New Canaan, Connecticut and Darien, Connecticut. It was nominated for eight Oscars and won three: Best Picture, Best Supporting Actress (Celeste Holm), and Best Director (Elia Kazan).

Gentleman's Agreement - Wikipedia

Because one ship was turned back does not make the USA antisemitic.

MS St. Louis - Wikipedia

To this day some refugees get into the USA, others do not. The lesson for anti immigrants of today to learn is from the heroics of American Christians who worked to take in so many Jewish refugees during WW2.

According to the USHMM hundreds of thousands of Jews fleeing the Third Reich were taken in by the USA as refugees during WW2.

My friend the facts are not on the side of the propagandists trying to convince good people like you that the USA is or ever was against Jews. Its long been one of the most anti American propaganda points to say well there was the Reich but hey the USA was also antisemitic during WW2. Its what intolerant pro Israelis say to wrongly try and get people to think Israel is the only safe place for Jews when the great majority of Jews to the present times live outside of Israel. Jewish people want freedom, thats why America, Turkey, and France are filled with Jewish folks.

The USA during WW2 was probably the most tolerant country in the world. Yes we had the discrimination against colored folk, but in the 1940s bigotry was a worldwide issue there was slavery in Africa in the 1940s. All in all the USA was the most tolerant country in the world during WW2. FDR had American Jews working for him. Roosevelt was a huge supporter of the USSR through lend lease and more. The Soviet Union saw 500,000 Soviet Jews take up the rifle to fight the Reich. The Christian majority USA , England , as well as the Communists and Nationalists from China and USSR all worked together to defeat the Christian majority Third Reich bent on eliminating all Jews of the world.
 
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Dec 2015
3,232
USA
You are confusing the issue again, and I suspect deliberately. I will repeat it again, Iraq, like a lot of other Middle Eastern Muslim countries BANS Israelis from traveling to it.

The following countries BAN Israelis, this is the reason why Israelis can't travel there:
Algeria
Bangladesh
Brunei
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Malaysia
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Syria
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Source: Israeli passport - Wikipedia

So is Israel... In fact, I just checked 2018 Democracy index and Israel even ranks slightly above Belgium.
Israel is the only democratic state in the middle of autocratic authoritarian thugs, petty gangster regimes, and theocratic dictatorships.
The key is that Israel is not a free state, it has intolerant religious laws and leaders similar to Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, Syria.

This point my good friend about Israel being a democracy...If you approve of blocking interfaith marriage, and if you approve of blocking freedom of movement as Egypt and Israeli gov do that is your choice. This is not the behavior of civil and dignified countries. They do not earn the the label of democracy.

Point about Iraq is clear. Iraqis can travel w/e they want including to Israel. Why The Iraqi gov prevents Israels from traveling to Israel, if true, and I do not buy it...it could be due to a # of issues involving politics.

There are over 50 Muslim majority countries, and one Jewish country. Your list only shows a dozen or so Muslim countries that allegedly ban Israeli travel. And again, Jewish people can travel to Saudi Arabia ie Jared Kushner the son and law of the POTUS he is Jewish and is warmly recived in Saudi Arabia. Why is Saudi on your list above, considering the growing ties between Saudi and Israel. You know of the growing ties between Saudi and Israel yes?


In Iran there are tens of thousands of Iranian Jews. Can a Iranian travel to Israel? Again this is politics. We all agree that Iranians, Arabs, Israeli Europeans, and Israeli Arabs in general are not bigots. The issue is the intolerant governments of the world which includes Israel and most Muslim majority countries.
 
Dec 2015
3,232
USA
And this is good. The moment Palestinians feel like they can, they will go to war with Israel again.

This is false. Majority of Palestinians want the eradication of the state of Israel. The only free election where Palestinians were allowed to vote, they elected HAMAS, whose charter was and still is the destruction of Israel and killing of the Jews. No one is preventing Palestinians to organize free and fair democratic elections anytime they want on their territory. Oh wait, Mahmoud Abbas is still governing in his 14th year of the 4 year term. Are you going to blame Israelis for that as well?
Netanyahu has long, long been in Power in Israel, same with Abbas.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/

Difference is Abbas is a figurehead, Netanyahu exerts real power. As for Hamas, they are a big time loser in the world not many people like them.

Palestine is not a state, there elections are not real. A real country is Israel, The USA, Turkey, these countries have a military. Palestinians do not have a military, many Palestinians and Israels do not want what the Israeli and Palestinian leaders want, evidence shown is that many Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Muslim immigrants from Israel to the USA intermarry into different faiths.

Many Palestinians work in Israel.


Palestinian workers in Israel - Wikipedia

Palestinian workers in Israel


My Friend Muhammad a Palestinian represents the average Palestinian well, he is college educated and liberal in nature.

I have never blamed Israels or Palestinians , that is Third Reich type talk...the issue is the Israeli and Palestinian Gov leadership. There is a link out there showing a few years back in Israel that many Israeli Liberals were almost successful in making a interfaith marriage legal to be performed in Israel, it failed but it almost got there. The intolerant ones will eventually lose, soon Israel and Palestine will be one state with one military, a state with liberal laws similar to Turkey, England and the USA. Liberal laws will be seen in the entire world eventually
 
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Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
@johnincornwall

Seeing these countries accepted tens of thousands of jewish refugees your post might be contested by a few descendants.

They can protest all they like. It is a matter of record that all the allied countries closed their borders to Jews from around 1941.

The Allies’ decision to close their borders to Jews during World War II is still a sensitive subject, and new files held by the United Nations that have just been released by the London-based Wiener Library for the Study of the Holocaust and Genocide show that the United States, Russia, and Great Britain knew as early as December 1942 about Germany’s operations to liquidate European Jewry in the wake of the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.

When the world shut its doors to the Jews
 
Aug 2014
134
New York, USA
Point about Iraq is clear. Iraqis can travel w/e they want including to Israel. Why The Iraqi gov prevents Israels from traveling to Israel, if true, and I do not buy it...it could be due to a # of issues involving politics.
So you are just blatantly denying facts?
Palestinians do not have a military,
Yes, because last time they were allowed to have guns, they tried to kill as many Jews as they could. Nowadays the fatalities from Palestinians are low, since they are confined to their place with no weapons, and they only manage to kill an occasional Israeli soldier with a rock to the head.
There are over 50 Muslim majority countries, and one Jewish country. Your list only shows a dozen or so Muslim countries that allegedly ban Israeli travel. And again, Jewish people can travel to Saudi Arabia ie Jared Kushner the son and law of the POTUS he is Jewish and is warmly recived in Saudi Arabia. Why is Saudi on your list above, considering the growing ties between Saudi and Israel. You know of the growing ties between Saudi and Israel yes?
Kushner is not an Israeli citizen. Kushner is a citizen of the United States and has an American passport.
In Iran there are tens of thousands of Iranian Jews. Can a Iranian travel to Israel? Again this is politics. We all agree that Iranians, Arabs, Israeli Europeans, and Israeli Arabs in general are not bigots. The issue is the intolerant governments of the world which includes Israel and most Muslim majority countries.
Israelis are banned from visiting Iran by the Iranians. The official foreign policy of Iran is "to eradicate Israel like a cancerous tumor". Iran has also sponsored terrorist attacks on Israelis, such as bombing of Israeli embassy in Argentina.
Netanyahu has long, long been in Power in Israel, same with Abbas.

Difference is Abbas is a figurehead, Netanyahu exerts real power.
Are you seriously comparing democratically elected Prime Minister Netanyahu to Abbas?
Netanyahu's party won elections in 2009, 2013, 2015 and there is another democratic election scheduled in 2 months. In parliamentary democracies like in Europe or Israel, prime ministers can be in office for quite a while, as long as their party remains popular and keeps winning elections, just look at Angela Merkel.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,616
Portugal
So is Israel... In fact, I just checked 2018 Democracy index and Israel even ranks slightly above Belgium.
According to your source, the Economist, a economic magazine, with data available on Wikipedia, both are flawed democracies, Israel with a score of 5.88 of Civil Liberties and Belgium with a score of 8.53.

The indexes are good but they measure what they measure. To what point does that index measures the religious issues and liberties? And this is a serious question, I don’t know the answer.
 
Nov 2010
7,266
Cornwall
@johnincornwall



They can protest all they like. It is a matter of record that all the allied countries closed their borders to Jews from around 1941.


When the world shut its doors to the Jews
That article - which is an article - mentions Cuba, USA and Canada, not GB. Plus I repeat - how on earth was anyone supposed to emigrate to Britain in 1941? You are either being deliberately provocative or you have no concept of wartime Britain.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,905
The People's Republik of Kalifornia.
As far as I know Belgium is today a fully democratic state.

Israel is a religious state with some democratic institutions but that doesn’t recognize citizenship to some persons in territories that fully controls and occupies. We can understand this at the light of security reasons, we can agree or disagree with that option, we can recall the list of enemies, but let us not call those options democratic.

So, probably this would divert the thread, this is a highly controversial theme, even in Israel among the Jews, and even more among the non-Jews, so let us agree that we disagree bout this.
You've got it backwards.

Lots of European countries have specific religions listed as their state religions, and some countries, like Germany even pay religious taxes. Does that make these countries religious states?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,616
Portugal
You've got it backwards.

Lots of European countries have specific religions listed as their state religions, and some countries, like Germany even pay religious taxes. Does that make these countries religious states?
It seems that in the last week, while I am talking to you, I always get it backwards, Menshevik!

As far as I know, all the religious taxes in the European countries are not compulsory for all citizens. They are only for the members of the religious congregation. In other words, they are not universal. If I got it here backwards feel free to correct me. I like to learn.

As for state religions in European countries, I think that there are still some, England comes immediately to my mind, and some Scandinavian countries, but as far as I know, in most of them there is no interference of the religion in the rights of the citizens, and the state religion is mostly protocolar. Again, if I got it backwards feel free to correct me.

But, as you surely understood, the case of the European countries was not my point, as it was not my point the case of the presidents of the USA often end their speeches with “God bless you all” or “God bless the USA”, or that they use the bible to put their hand in their oath, or as I see on the Media (movies, series, books) in the USA the witness in a court swear with their hand on the bible (I was never in a USA court, I assume that this is a representation of some reality), my point is that there is a direct connection of the state of Israel with the Jewish fate, as it was pointed in the links that I provided, namely Jewish and democratic state - Wikipedia and Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

If there are some errors in those Wikipedia entries, feel free to point them. I am not an expert on the theme.

And if I understood correctly, it was also pointed in this thread, and not yet denied, that marriages between people of different sex and different religion is not possible. So, if it true, here we have a direct interference of the religion in the rights of the citizens. Again if this is incorrect, feel free to clarify.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,905
The People's Republik of Kalifornia.
It seems that in the last week, while I am talking to you, I always get it backwards, Menshevik!

As far as I know, all the religious taxes in the European countries are not compulsory for all citizens. They are only for the members of the religious congregation. In other words, they are not universal. If I got it here backwards feel free to correct me. I like to learn.

As for state religions in European countries, I think that there are still some, England comes immediately to my mind, and some Scandinavian countries, but as far as I know, in most of them there is no interference of the religion in the rights of the citizens, and the state religion is mostly protocolar. Again, if I got it backwards feel free to correct me.

But, as you surely understood, the case of the European countries was not my point, as it was not my point the case of the presidents of the USA often end their speeches with “God bless you all” or “God bless the USA”, or that they use the bible to put their hand in their oath, or as I see on the Media (movies, series, books) in the USA the witness in a court swear with their hand on the bible (I was never in a USA court, I assume that this is a representation of some reality), my point is that there is a direct connection of the state of Israel with the Jewish fate, as it was pointed in the links that I provided, namely Jewish and democratic state - Wikipedia and Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

If there are some errors in those Wikipedia entries, feel free to point them. I am not an expert on the theme.

And if I understood correctly, it was also pointed in this thread, and not yet denied, that marriages between people of different sex and different religion is not possible. So, if it true, here we have a direct interference of the religion in the rights of the citizens. Again if this is incorrect, feel free to clarify.
I feel like you're moving the goal posts and muddying the waters here. And you're avoiding my question.....again. I asked:
Lots of European countries have specific religions listed as their state religions, and some countries, like Germany even pay religious taxes. Does that make these countries religious states?



1.It wasn't until 2015, I think, that same sex marriages were made universally legal here in the US. Can (could) the US be described then as a religious state?

2.Besides the marriage issue in Israel how is the state religion interfering their lives?

3. I think you're being too dismissive of the religious tax obligations in Germany. I believe the tax is compulsory for anyone who is registered (i.e. baptized as child) as said religion. To avoid paying it you must go out of your way to opt out. And after opting out, you are no longer entitled to any ceremonial services from said religion.
 

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