What are your thoughts on secession?

Aug 2016
917
US&A
#41
Don’t be ridiculous. Clearly you have no understanding of what “socialism” is. Kindly educate yourself. California is the 5th largest economy on the planet so it is anything but a failure. The state under Jerry Brown is running large budget surpluses. Most red states are running large deficits because of stupid - not to say insane - tax cuts. Your dislike;Ike of California for no valid reasons disqualifies you in this discussion.
Evidence?
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,345
San Antonio, Tx
#42
Evidence of what, your wrong use of the word “socialism” which is defined as the ownership by the government of the means of production? What parts of California are owned, operated and run by the government? Or are you referring to “social democracy” which exists in a lot, if not most, Western European countries and which is quite different from socialism. Many Americans make this mistake.

I don’t have the state deficits to hand here, but the red states have much more debt than the Blue ones, but, again, I have only read that somewhere. It’s late and I don’t have time to dig it out. The states that have taken a “slash and burn” approach to taxes are worse off than those that have not taken this approach. Prove me wrong.
 
Aug 2016
917
US&A
#43
Evidence of what, your wrong use of the word “socialism” which is defined as the ownership by the government of the means of production? What parts of California are owned, operated and run by the government? Or are you referring to “social democracy” which exists in a lot, if not most, Western European countries and which is quite different from socialism. Many Americans make this mistake.

I don’t have the state deficits to hand here, but the red states have much more debt than the Blue ones, but, again, I have only read that somewhere. It’s late and I don’t have time to dig it out. The states that have taken a “slash and burn” approach to taxes are worse off than those that have not taken this approach. Prove me wrong.
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" -Christopher Hitchens
 
Jun 2012
5,703
Texas
#46
What are your thoughts on secession?

As for me, for the most part, I support secession. For instance, in the United States of America, I would support allowing any U.S. state which is not completely surrounded by U.S. territory to secede from the United States if a majority of the voters there genuinely want to do this. For instance, if secession will acquire 51+% of the total vote in California (and assuming that voter turnout wouldn't be super-low), then I would support the right of California to secede from the United States of America. The one exception that I would make is during the American Civil War--where I would have opposed secession due to the Southern U.S.'s staunch support of slavery.

I would apply the same logic to Israel. If an Arab-majority region or territory of Israel was not completely surrounded by Israel wanted to secede from Israel, I would support their right to do so (assuming that the pro-secession side would get 51+% of the total vote in a referendum which has significant turnout).

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think that it's a good idea to keep people inside of a country if they don't want to be there and if they can actually form a viable independent state. What's interesting is that when secession occurs, it is generally irreversible--for instance, take a look at the break-up of Austria-Hungary, the break-up of the Soviet Union, the break-up of Yugoslavia (though that was unfortunately extremely bloody--especially, but not only, in Bosnia), the break-up of British India (and the subsequent break-up of Pakistan), the Mongolian secession from China, the French withdrawal from Algeria, the abandonment of the European colonial empires (even though this techncially wouldn't be considered secession), et cetera. What this suggests is that secession--once established--develops a life of its own to the extent that a rollback of this secession becomes unthinkable.

I do think that, in certain cases, secession would be too much of a pain in the ass to realistically implement, though. For instance, the ethnic situation in Bosnia in 1991 was a hodgepodge of different nationalities and it would have been extremely difficult to adequately partition the country; thus, if I lived in Bosnia in 1991, I would have probably opposed secession. Still, sometimes secession can be accomplished pretty neatly and relatively peacefully--such as when the Soviet Union broke up. Thus, in many cases, my own strategy would be to support secession if there is the necessary demand for it but to work on making it as smooth and as peaceful as possible.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on secession?
I agree, you are naive. As a rule, States don't voluntarily permit secession. That's how civil wars start.
 
Jan 2017
686
UK
#47
I would imagine the state/region pondering independence has already calculated the potential costs and risks of remaining vs independence. Although judging by the aftermath of some recent Independence referenda, probably not!
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#48
I firmly support Britain's secession from the EU.

I could't care less, unless it has a negative effect on Australia. Plus, the Huff post UK, is riddled with stories about two appalling people; that Jeremy Corbyn dickhead and the unspeakable Theresa May. Be glad when It's all over. I know, my fault entirely for reading the Huff post UK. :rolleyes:
 
Dec 2011
2,160
#49
I support voluntary secession 100%. I think it is up to the people who oppose it to justify their reasoning. If the majority of the people of any state in the USA no longer want to be part of the USA, who are you are I, or anybody else who is not an inhabitant of that state, to say they shouldn't.

Theoretically I support voluntary secession of states worldwide, and even extend that to include individual cities, maybe even villages.

Having said that, every nation has the right to treat the seceding community as it likes (without attacking it). The secessionists may find that their border with larger nation is sealed to them, thus disrupting their trade. A particularly small state might find that it is no longer under the military umbrella of the larger nation it seceded from, and gets invaded by another mighty foreign power.
 

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,813
Dispargum
#50
I'm going to take a contradictory position. I agree with the right of self-determination. I also believe that life is impossible without a certain degree of stability and predictability. Why would a national government invest in infrastructure in a region that might secede in the near future? I believe that government is a contract between all concerned parties: national government, state or provincial government, local government, and the citizens. Contracts can only be broken for a very short list of reasons. The most common grounds for breaking a contract is mutual consent. I believe a government being seceded from has the right to enforce its contract by force. I also believe an oppressed people or region are allowed to fight for their independence. Not every problem has a peaceful solution. Unfortunately, sometimes these questions can only be answered through force of arms.
 
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