What are your thoughts on the fact that a lot of different ethnic groups in Europe have their own state(s) right now?

Mar 2019
106
Victoria, Australia
#22
Synarix, is there a Flemish "culture" and a Walloon "culture".
Depends what you mean by Culture. Wallonians originate from when burgundy ruled over the land (so does the Picard dialect to an extent). I would say them significantly different enough to be considered as cultures.

Flemish is well, the same story as the dutch really. What's interesting is that the flemish wanted, for most of their history, to be associated or to unify with the United Provinces/Holland/Netherlands whilst the Wallon wanted to join France.

I'm no expert or anything. But yes, I would consider them to be 'cultures' in their own right. Certainly sub-cultures (like the difference between Laconian greeks and Boetian Greeks for example -- sure they were both greek, but different enough to be considered different cultures).
 
Dec 2011
1,321
Belgium
#23
Depends what you mean by Culture. Wallonians originate from when burgundy ruled over the land (so does the Picard dialect to an extent). I would say them significantly different enough to be considered as cultures.

Flemish is well, the same story as the dutch really. What's interesting is that the flemish wanted, for most of their history, to be associated or to unify with the United Provinces/Holland/Netherlands whilst the Wallon wanted to join France.

I'm no expert or anything. But yes, I would consider them to be 'cultures' in their own right. Certainly sub-cultures (like the difference between Laconian greeks and Boetian Greeks for example -- sure they were both greek, but different enough to be considered different cultures).
Synarix, (and Linschoten and my friend isleifson from the Lorraine tudesque)

Indeed: it depends on what you mean with the word "culture"....
I will come back at the end of my argument on this "culture"
"Wallonians originate from when burgundy ruled over the land (so does the Picard dialect to an extent). I would say them significantly different enough to be considered as cultures"
Synarix, I don't blame you for all this, while it is difficult for an outsider to have a grasp of the complex history of the Low Countries
I explained it already all to Authun and William of Orange on these boards
House of Valois-Burgundy - Wikipedia

The "Walloons" and those of the nowadays Flemish region didn't even exists yet, The Flemish movement only raised in the last half of the 19th century in reaction to the supremacy of the French language in every branch of the new Belgium of 1830 and of course it was also a "social" reaction against the own French minded Flemish elite and the tutelle from Brussels, but that social is rapidly hijacked by the upcoming Socialism. The "Wallloon" movement only started in the last half of the 20th century in reaction to the ever increasing demands of the Flemish movement.
After the unification of the Burgundian Kreiz by our Charles V (Carlos I for Spain) the Low Countires became split by the religious wars, the Dutch Revolt ending in the Dutch Republic and the Spanish Netherlands, from which the French Louis' took a chunk of the County of Flanders

And from then on in the last 400 years there was as you recognize on the map an entity already nearly the later Belgium with a common culture of a mix of Low Country culture (as in the Dutch Republic) and French and Spanish influences.
That means that there was a common culture, which started to differ gradually from the North of the Low Countries, especially by religion. Religion which put also a strong stamp on culture and customs.
And it went further under the Austrian Netherlands:

And after the French occupation and the new United Kingdom of the Netherlands by the British, at the end into Belgium

and nowadays


Synarix I will speak about the "culture" in an addendum as this message becomes too long...

Kind regards, Paul.
 
Mar 2019
106
Victoria, Australia
#24
Oh. I'm well aware of most of the cultures and history of the low countries. I was over simplifying my post not intending to have a 3 page document on it's history as I think it was neither here nor there. BUt perhaps my post was misleading. I was trying to say that the wallons exist because of burgundy's actions and history, not some much as a direct consequence....
 
Jun 2013
481
Connecticut
#25
In the thousands of years of European history words like tolerance, multiculturism, diverity were never in their vocabulary. That's why every hilltop in Europe is home to some distinct ethnic group. Everybody's got their own hilltop now. That should keep them peaceful. At least most of them. Now some people are coming in from outside Europe. The problem is going to rear it's ugly head again. Then in time they too will have their hilltops to call their own and practice their rituals and traditions.
 
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Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,778
Lorraine tudesque
#26
Let's keep it simple...

I had many business trips to both Flandern and Holland. In Flandern we allways had formal businesss lunch like in France with apéritif and digestif for two hours. In Holland we had a break for 30 minutes with a chease sandwich and a glass of milk.

Nothing to write about Wallonia because there are no interesting companies left.
 
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Dec 2011
1,321
Belgium
#27
In the thousands of years of European history words like tolerance, multiculturism, diverity were never in their vocabulary. That's why every hilltop in Europe is home to some distinct ethnic group. Everybody's got their own hilltop now. That should keep them peaceful. At least most of them. Now some people are coming in from outside Europe. The problem is going to rear it's ugly head again. Then in time they too will have their hilltops to call their own and practice their rituals and traditions.
Talbot Vilna,

"every hilltop in Europe" you said...as we take the example of the Low Countries...it's all flat, except the Ardennes in the South...in that case we can call perhaps the big cities as factors of local singularities? And I think you can extend it to the whole Europe? (including Britain?). For instance Italy: the big cities from the North, the Rome region and the South?

Kind regards, Paul.
 
Dec 2011
1,321
Belgium
#28
Linschoten, Isleifson and Synarix,

about the "cultures" in Belgium...
As I mentioned in my former message up to the wording of Belgium there was only one singularity, one cuiture up to 1830. Even in the United States of Belgium
https://wikivisually.com/wiki/United_Belgian_States 1790, they were united against the Austrian Joseph II.
But from 1830 on there came a reaction from the Dutch dialects speaking North. I made a whole discussion on the French Passion Histoire about "de taal is gans het volk" (the language is the whole country) (can find it back if someone wishes) as it was in that time a European phenomenon, especially between the German states and France, the vision of the German Herder versus the French Renan. The German "völkisch" approach. The special realtionship of the "Volk" with the "Nation"
The link that I mentioned some years ago about the academic debate of the Herder/Renan controversy isn't available anymore, but I found just this update, which even comments the nowadays phenomena of the ressurection of that "völkisch" behaviour. Lucky that the two big proponents of this debate are after WWII coming that close together, even a common French-German channel ARTE...I am still reading it...
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2de2/c1dceb5609f2111821debfbed3d72c6781b0.pdf
And the influence on the Dutch speaking North Belgium from that Herder nationalism, which culminated nearly with the 1870 German Kaiserreich
It is in Dutch from the Louvain university
De Taal is gans het Volk: Duits romantisch nationalisme in België

And now to the so-called different cultures of the nowadays Belgium.
In my opinion it started all just after WWII in the Fifties in my opinion.Till then the struggle was always been language related and of course with the 19th century symbols of the "roman national" 1302 and "Vlaanderen de Leeuw". And two times hindered by the Flemish collaboration in both WW. But after WWII the Walloon prosperity of the old industry was moving to the harbours of Antwerp and Ghent. And by that the North more gaining from the Marshall help than the South? Wallonia perhaps to compare with Middle England of the cotton mills? Of course the economic weigth of the Flemish region became more preponderant and hence there political weight.

If one would want to speak about different "culture" between the Flemish region and the Francophone South it has in my opinion more to do, and that only since some 50 years, with the light entertainment culture, as the television is more and more related with the Dutch television and as the phenomena of televison are self-amplyfying, how more the public identifies with the programs how more the programs change to follow the trends in the public. And as the Francophones are more looking to French orientated programs from the big neighbour...

If one want to speak about singularity I in my opinion would distinguish three in the North of Belgium: the one of East and West Flanders and as I lived a long time in both I would say that they are more leaning to the French North Pas de Calais, while those of Antwerp and Flemish Brabant are more the same as in the Dutch Brabant over the border, my friends from West Flanders say: they are a bit authoritarian like the Dutch and of course the Limburgers are completely others, even jokes about them from the rest of the Flemish region (à la the Dutch Belgian jokes...but I guess in Germany it is not otherwise. As those of Bayern,with their specific "culture" and their specific language (certainly no Hochdeutsch). Linschoten perhaps you can make comparisons with England?

Kind regards, Paul.
 
Jun 2013
481
Connecticut
#29
Talbot Vilna,

"every hilltop in Europe" you said...as we take the example of the Low Countries...it's all flat, except the Ardennes in the South...in that case we can call perhaps the big cities as factors of local singularities? And I think you can extend it to the whole Europe? (including Britain?). For instance Italy: the big cities from the North, the Rome region and the South?

Kind regards, Paul.
Hi Paul, I was only using "hilltop" as a metaphor and not literally.
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,075
Europix
#30
for most of their history, to be associated or to unify with the United Provinces/Holland/Netherlands whilst the Wallon wanted to join France.
Yes ... but no.

If You talk about "Flemish" and "Walloons" it means You talk about modern history. And in modern history, even amongst the most nationalist movements, the ratachism is absolutely insignificant (on both sides).
 
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