What are your thoughts on Winston Churchill?

Jan 2015
3,175
Rupert's Land ;)
German casualties on the Eastern Front were 4,000,000 dead.

Eastern Front (World War II) - Wikipedia

German casualties on the western front were 373,600 according to the American Army

German casualties in World War II - Wikipedia

A lot of Germans and Russians died on the Eastern Front. The different casualty figures are quite sobering, but since the Germans were engaged in a “war of extermination” on the Eastern Front, it was qualitatively different from the war on the Western Front. The German war effort on the Eastern Front caused the Russians to respond with a war of extermination of its own - meaning lost of people died on both sides, but I’m thinking the Germans were even more brutal than the Russians - probably a close call.
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Correct. However the post you quoted misrepresents the actual number of casualties IN HIS OWN LINK..

In fact, the Germans suffered MORE casualties vs Western Allies than Soviets. :oops:
There were about 6.8 million casualties vs Soviets, and 8.567 million vs Western allies.

According to the report of General George Marshall issued in 1945 the "breakdown of German and Italian losses against American, British, and French forces" in the war in Europe was as follows:

TOTAL 8,567,583
A common tactic by those who want to belittle or dismiss Western contributions is to count only "dead" and not captured. This ignores the reality that there were millions of German PoWs captured by the Soviets who were summarily killed, starved to death or simply disappeared, which vastly inflated Soviet "killed and missing" claims
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Factual, especially if you're not convinced by the boilerplate moron propaganda mass produced for mental midgets during the war. Anyone who actually believes what a government school tells them should be castrated to prevent the spread of mental retardation.
Nice insult.Check out George Carlin for really good insults.

Apart from that , your post is an ad hominem attack, not an argument.

Australians tend to have mixed feelings about Churchill because of his role in the Gallipoli debacle.,in 1915.

"This Saturday, Anzac day, marks the hundredth anniversary of one of the most important battles of the First World War - and forms one of the pillars of Britain's centenary schedule.
Yet despite intense remembrance in Turkey, Australia and New Zealand, this anniversary seems to resonate less with the British public than those of the First Battle of Ypres or the Marne. Perhaps this is because it was such a catastrophic loss for the Allies. Or perhaps it was because it is because Winston Churchill, the primary architect of the disastrous campaign, was to become a British icon and national hero in the next world war."

Gallipoli was Churchill's folly - but not only his



I've mentioned before that I reject the 'great man' view of history as simplistic. Plus, I have an overwhelming distrust of politicians as a species.

Education has always been an agent of power and control for the status quo. Perhaps most noticeably in the teaching of history.,but also powerfully , if more subtly, in all books and content of teaching.
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From what I understand of the US education system, school boards can often be as subtle asa punch in the face. Sometimes it has taken legal action to change some practices; EG desegregation, eliminating Jim Crow laws generally ,and banning prayers in schools.
 
Aug 2010
15,229
Welsh Marches
To say that Churchill was the primary architect of Gallipoli is true in its way, but also rather misleading. To try to find an alternative to the war of attrition was a worthy and indeed very worthy aim, and the project was not absurd from the beginning, andit is an oversimplification to present Churchil as being responsible for the whole disaster. It should be remembered that Churchill was at the Admiralty, and the initial plan was centred around a naval operation. It was only after the attempt to force the Straits met with failure that the Gallipoli enterprise became a primarily military operation, and Churchill was naturally not responsible for the military planning, but rather Lord Kitchener, Ian Hamilton etc. There was and is an element of scapegoating in the treatment of Churchill over this, because although he may have been the main driver of the original project, other people were just as responsible as he was, and in important respects more responsible, for what the project turned into. He was otherwise good at the Admiralty.
 
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Likes: Lord Fairfax
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Legends are seldom diminished by facts, and tend to be dumbed down to the level of the dumbest members of society.

The Gallipoli fiasco is revered in Australia,.as our great 'coming- of-age-as-a nation moment. ANZAC day is a public holiday, and a great many people show as much reverence as they do for say Christmas. Marches are held in every city in Australia and New Zealand. Dawn services are held in all towns of a reasonable size. In recent years it has become the custom for youth especially, to travel toTurkey for a dawn service at Gallipoli cove.

Any Australian or Australian ally who has seem war service may march. Almost all WW2 veterans are dead or gaga, so the oldest marchers now tent to be Vietnam vets.


According to the legend, the mess was the fault of British leadership, especially that of Churchill. He was after all,First Lord of The Admiralty.

Seems to me that the level of his culpability is still subject to debate.

The quote below was taken from a review of 'Gallipoli 1915; Churchill's Greatest Gamble,

"On 25th April 1915, Winston Churchill, First Lord of the Admiralty, launched a hastily assembled force of British, Australian, New Zealand and French troops against the Turkish defenses on the Gallipoli peninsula. Their goal was to capture the forts that guarded the Dardanelles. With that achieved, the British and French Fleets would sail to Constantinople, topple the Ottoman government, and open up a supply line to Russia. However, defending the beaches was an equal number of Turkish divisions, hardened in the recent Balkan Wars, led by well-trained Turkish officers, supported by advisors from the German General Staff."

The Youtube clip s of Dawn service at Gallipoli cove marking the centenary. It's also the shortest clipI could find. You will notice HRH Charles, Prince Of Wales, laying a wreath,

 
I never understood why Australia and New Zealand make such a big deal out of gallipoli when they only made up a small percentage of the troops, the way they act about it you would think it was some great bold thing that they fought on their own for the first time.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
I never understood why Australia and New Zealand make such a big deal out of gallipoli when they only made up a small percentage of the troops, the way they act about it you would think it was some great bold thing that they fought on their own for the first time.
We realise most other countries don't get it .That's fine, but I wouldn't say that in public in Oz.

AS I've already mentioned ANZAC is a revered legend . I have no idea how true the legend is. However, to ,Australians the Gallipoli campaign is a very big deal indeed. It lasted 8 months and over 8000 Australians were killed. At that time, our total population was 4.9 million.

Before criticising something important my country, I suggest you might like to do some reading on the subject from an Australian perspective . The article below might be a good place to start.
However, you've said "I'll never understand" .Such a statement suggests your mind is closed on the subject and you don't WANtT to understand. If that's the case ,no problem, you have an absolute right to remain ignorant. I've given as much of an explanation as I think appropriate for me . I don't celebrate ANZAC day, but I do understand why millions of Aussies and Kiwis , like my late father and his mates ,revere the day. Here I'm defending the memory of my father and his wartime service.

Anzac Day is a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand.
It is celebrated on April 25 every year and commemorates all the Australian and New Zealand soldiers who fought during World War I in Gallipoli.
It is also a time to remember all Australians killed in military operations over the years.
Why is Anzac Day so important for Australians?
On the morning of April 25, 1915, the allies landed on the shores of Gallipoli to to capture Constantinople (now Istanbul), the capital of the Ottoman Empire and an ally of Germany.
This was in order to open the Dardanelles to the allied naives.
The campaign went on for eight months with both sides suffering thousands of casualties.
Eventually the allied forces were evacuated and over 8000 Australian soldiers were killed. This had a profound impact on the country which shaped the nations identity on war.
Why do we have a dawn service on Anzac Day?
The dawn service symbolically links to the soldiers landing at dawn in Gallipoli.
The first official dawn service was held at Sydney Cenotaph in 1927. Initially the service was restricted to veterans only – a time for them to reflect on their experiences at war with other comrades.
In later years, young people and families were encouraged to take part in the dawn service and wear a red poppy.
The service consists of an introduction, hymn, prayer, an address, laying of the wreaths, recitation, and the playing of The Last Post, Reveille and national anthems.
What is the origin of the acronym Anzac?
The acronym was formed from the letters of the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.
The soldiers were grouped together in this formation in Egypt before landing in Gallipoli.
It was first written as ‘A & NZ Army Corps’ however it was soon shortened to ANZAC by the clerks as a telegraphic code name.
The word ‘Anzac’ made its first appearance on April 24, 1915 on an appendix to the 1st Australian Division War Diary.
General Staff, Headquarters 1st Australian Division unit diary, April 1915. Photo: Australian War MemorialWhy do we use rosemary on Anzac Day?
Rosemary is traditionally worn on Anzac Day as it was found growing wild on the Gallipoli peninsula where the soldiers landed.
In ancient times, the herb was believed to have properties to improve the memory. Medical research has explored this belief and found that rosemary in powdered forms and oil do have positive effects


Anzac Day: The importance April 25 in Australia
 
Jul 2018
477
Hong Kong
I never understood why Australia and New Zealand make such a big deal out of gallipoli when they only made up a small percentage of the troops
You never understand doesn't mean something is unreasonable or incomprehensible. I raise an additional example here.

Sanada Clan was just a minor power in the Sengoku Era, possessed no more than 2% of the territories in Japan.
And the Sengoku Era was more than 400 years ago in the history of Japan.

Yet....examine at the Ueda City. Every year the "Sanada Festival" with all sorts of cosplay and stage show invigorate the local people !
The Sanada clan's famous "six coins family crest" became the household icon for the Japanese nowadays.
There is even a museum newly built for celebrating the AD 2016 Taiga Drama Sanadamaru !

Sanada....the Sengoku Era....should be really not a "big deal" (from your perspective).
Then why is the Japanese so enjoying such entertainment and loving it so much ? (really not inferior than ANZAC day in spirit)



(this is the bustling Sanada Festival !)
 
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We realise most other countries don't get it .That's fine, but I wouldn't say that in public in Oz.

AS I've already mentioned ANZAC is a revered legend . I have no idea how true the legend is. However, to ,Australians the Gallipoli campaign is a very big deal indeed. It lasted 8 months and over 8000 Australians were killed. At that time, our total population was 4.9 million.

Before criticising something important my country, I suggest you might like to do some reading on the subject from an Australian perspective . The article below might be a good place to start.
However, you've said "I'll never understand" .Such a statement suggests your mind is closed on the subject and you don't WANtT to understand. If that's the case ,no problem, you have an absolute right to remain ignorant. I've given as much of an explanation as I think appropriate for me . I don't celebrate ANZAC day, but I do understand why millions of Aussies and Kiwis , like my late father and his mates ,revere the day. Here I'm defending the memory of my father and his wartime service.
I said "I never understood" not "I'll never understand". No need to get so defensive i simply meant why does is battle out of all those in ww1 that Australian and New Zealander troops fought given so much attention.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
I said "I never understood" not "I'll never understand". No need to get so defensive i simply meant why does is battle out of all those in ww1 that Australian and New Zealander troops fought given so much attention.
Semantics. What came across was a willful ignorance; your choice not to make a fairly small effort to learn and understand,.
 

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