What edge did Eastern Steppe peoples have over Western Steppe peoples in the Ancient/Early middle ages that allowed them to replace them

Mar 2014
1,994
Lithuania
This is because IE Urheimat was in the Arctic Circle in Norther Europe or Western Siberia. Did they start with reindeer milk? :)
Most likely because indoeuropeans were also steppe nomads, simply they came much earlier and probably started to drink milk couple of thousand years earlier than they friends from Asia.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,767
The horse and animal husbandry. The first provided mobility. The second a high degree of organization easy to convert to a wartime footing.

Then there is a classic anthropological situation of mutual dependency. The Eurasian horse-nomads didn't come into being until settled agriculture was already in place. The horse-nomads in the interior of the continent were dependent on trade for certain things they would struggle to produce themselves, and so instead had to rely on the agricultural and city-building societies around then, along the coasts and river valleys. The agriculturalists tended to have numbers, but weren't necessarily set up for easy mobilization for war. The nomads always relatively were. So the mutual relationship over about 2000 years was characterized by trade, but then again when and where the nomads concluded it might actually be cheaper and simpler to just take what they needed or wanted, war and raiding certainly was an option.

Eventually, over time, some of these nomad societies figured out they might as well ride in and set themselves up as permanent rulers in various places. The most dedicated consistent attempt at retooling their society for the purposes of effectively a kind of institutionalized permanent "raid" in the form of an empire was the Mongols. The Mongols otoh came fairly close to the last hurrah for this kind of situation. Moving towards the early modern period advances in military technology and modern administration eventually permanently tipped the scales in favour of the settled agriculturalists.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,754
New Delhi, India
Most likely because indoeuropeans were also steppe nomads, simply they came much earlier and probably started to drink milk couple of thousand years earlier than they friends from Asia.
They came to steppes from North after being displaced by snow during the last ice-age. Steppes were their refugia (Last Glacial Maximum refugia - Wikipedia). RigVeda and Avesta mention conditions in Arctic region.
So the mutual relationship over about 2000 years was characterized by trade, but then again when and where the nomads concluded it might actually be cheaper and simpler to just take what they needed or wanted, war and raiding certainly was an option.
War was not the only option. Peaceful absorption in a prosperous sedentary society was another. People make Indo-Europeans look like marauders, but may not be wholly true. There is no mention of war when Indo-Aryans came and settled in India. The two societies assimilated, united their Gods and Goddesses and beliefs with due respect to each other. That is how Vedas became the primary scripture of Hinduism.
 
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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,767
War was not the only option. Peaceful absorption in a prosperous sedentary society was another. People make Indo-Europeans look like marauders, but may not be wholly true. There is no mention of war when Indo-Aryans came and settled in India. The two societies assimilated, united their Gods and Goddesses and beliefs with due respect to each other. That is how Vedas became the primary scripture of Hinduism.
Who said it was? The steppe nomads were symbiotically dependent on sedentary agriculturalist societies. Trade was the major interaction. Except when it wasn't.

And it's not as if horse-nomadism has somehow been associated with Indo-Europeanism. Whether in India or Europe, the Indo-Europeans seem to have turned up centuries before horse-nomadism became established in the interior of the Eurasian continent.
 
Mar 2014
1,994
Lithuania
Who said it was? The steppe nomads were symbiotically dependent on sedentary agriculturalist societies. Trade was the major interaction. Except when it wasn't.

And it's not as if horse-nomadism has somehow been associated with Indo-Europeanism. Whether in India or Europe, the Indo-Europeans seem to have turned up centuries before horse-nomadism became established in the interior of the Eurasian continent.
You are right in most things, but one. Indoeuropeans are first people that we know of that actually practiced horse-nomadism. There are numbers of threads about superiority of eastern nomads against western peoples. These discussions are fueled by people with some kind of Asian superiority complex. They seem to miss the fact that universaly hated white Europeans initially were nomads, that came from the east and conquered "west". I always find it a little bit funny. :)
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,754
New Delhi, India
Indo-Europeans had settled in the Pontic steppes (Volga valley, Seraglazovka), and from there spread in all directions. First towards West (Criss-Koros, Bug-Dneister, Dnieper–Donets), then towards North (Samara, Afanasevo, Sintashta), and lastly towards East (Oxus/Aral).
 
Mar 2015
1,451
Yorkshire
Indo-Europeans had settled in the Pontic steppes (Volga valley, Seraglazovka), and from there spread in all directions. First towards West (Criss-Koros, Bug-Dneister, Dnieper–Donets), then towards North (Samara, Afanasevo, Sintashta), and lastly towards East (Oxus/Aral).
IE family is quite well understood but linguistically never seems to have penetrated East of The Tarim Basin. By contrast , we have much less understanding of the Uralic\Altaic group and indeed the linkages are much less obvious. Consequently there are more outlandish theories and with more warring academics with their own pet theory. The recent trend has been to draw a distinction between the branches ie to think of Uralic as significantly different to Altaic Languages.

The Barbarians who pored into the Roman Empire in the 5th Century were IE of one sort or another whether, Germanic, Slavic or Iranian with the possible addition of (maybe Uralic) Huns.

I am assuming that when the author talks of "East Steppe" nomads he is really talking of those beyond the Urals from the Altaic linguistic peoples.

turkish.JPG

In the map above the blue areas are Turkish (language group - country) not speakers. As can be seen this group covers a large area from modern day Turkey to Eastern Siberia.

The Other group to note is in Green, Mongolic language group. Heimats are very difficult to identify but both Turkish and Mongolian may have originated in Northern Modern Day Mongolia (best guess for Uralic, ie FInnish and Magyar is North West Urals).

So as far as the question is concerned, we are really only talking of "Eastern Steppe" dominance in the period from about the 9th Century to 17th Century when firstly Turkish tribes (possibly a little earlier if Bulgars really were Turkish speakers) and then Mongol invasions in Western direction (following much earlier Eastern).
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,754
New Delhi, India
The Barbarians who pored into the Roman Empire in the 5th Century were IE of one sort or another whether, Germanic, Slavic or Iranian with the possible addition of (maybe Uralic) Huns.

So as far as the question is concerned, we are really only talking of "Eastern Steppe" dominance in the period from about the 9th Century to 17th Century when firstly Turkish tribes (possibly a little earlier if Bulgars really were Turkish speakers) and then Mongol invasions in Western direction (following much earlier Eastern).
IE were in Italy much before 5th Century BC. Emperor Nemo in 700 BC changed the 304 day/10-month Old Roman calandar and made it into a 12 month calender by adding January and February. That was an IE relic.
Much before the Eastern Steppe nomads, it were the Pontic Steppe nomads who moved into the Balkans and Germania. They were the IE people.
If we taike out the 2 months of Ati-Ratra (Greater Night, a relic of their Urheimat) from still followed Hindu rituals, we too are left with a 10-month Calendar. Also that we had priests who completed their ritual cycle in 10 months. They were known as "Dashagwahas". The term occurs in Avesta also.
I do not take Uralic to be very different, and IMHO, it has connections with IE.
As a record of history, Vedas are the best Hindu scriptures. Ramayana and Mahabharata are stories only.
 
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Sep 2016
573
天下
IE were in Italy much before 5th Century BC. Emperor Nemo in 700 BC changed the 304 day/10-month Old Roman calandar and made it into a 12 month calender by adding January and February. That was an IE relic.
He said 5th century, not 5th century BC. He was writing about the Migration Period which marked the end of the Roman era.