What ethnicity were the Muslims who were expelled from Spain in 1492?

Nov 2010
7,666
Cornwall
#11
I'm not pro-muslim except that I see people cruelly treated, enslaved, killed, deported or forcibly converted and it's not to do with religion it's to do with thinking how would your own family suffer.

If that's anti-Spanish then - sure I do not think it was particularly good - but of course it made the 'Spain' of today.

I just think that is everyone took the attitude of Alfonso I El Batallador and others - none of this would have happened! And of course it was Spain expelling it's own population, which is weird.

As Martin knows I can be very 'pro-Spanish' on other subjects.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,638
Spain
#12
I'm not pro-muslim except that I see people cruelly treated, enslaved, killed, deported or forcibly converted and it's not to do with religion it's to do with thinking how would your own family suffer.

If that's anti-Spanish then - sure I do not think it was particularly good - but of course it made the 'Spain' of today.

I just think that is everyone took the attitude of Alfonso I El Batallador and others - none of this would have happened! And of course it was Spain expelling it's own population, which is weird.

As Martin knows I can be very 'pro-Spanish' on other subjects.
John, you know a lot about Medieval History and about Medieval History in Spain you are a lecturer. I can see you only defended Moriscos because humanitarian thought...And yes I know you are not anti-spanish but I think in this issue you have been seized by contemporanean thought as "racism".... the expulsion was because of the War against Islam (Ottomans and berberian). And we must not to forget they were in connections with ottomans and berberian pirates... and also with French, British and Dutch...

So, if they would have been more loyals to the King... for sure they would have been here, I think.

Tnis book support Johnincornwall thesis: it was edited by Spanish Navy in 2010: La expulsión de los moriscos y la actividad de los corsarios norteafricanos (Expulsion of the Moriscos and the activity of the North African corsairs).

There were people as Father Aliaga (King´s confessor) or bishops as the one of Tortorsa or from Orihuela implored that there would be no collective expulsions and only those individuals who had relations with the Turk were expelled .

I think they were expelled because they had relations with the enemies of Spain: Turks, Islam, Protestant and French.

Really John.. you know a lot about history in Spain.

Regards
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,815
Sydney
#13
humanitarian concern are very nice but the ottomans and Algerian pirates massacred , raped , kidnapped all over the coastline of the Mediterranean
and as far as the Atlantic up to northern Britain
they had no humanitarian concern and were only after slaves and rowers which last had a very high turnover
due to the ferocious pace imposed on them and the abundance of replacement ,
on occasion the local would be given the "choice" of conversion to Islam or being butchered wholesale
 
Mar 2018
756
UK
#15
there is a reality that Christians and Muslims just don't mix very well
never did
the hostility to Muslims is the general attitude among traditional christians
the hostility to christians is the general attitude among traditional Muslims

like it or not , that a political fact much avoided in the main stream media
to bring economic factors in the equation is totally irrelevant ,
it totally miss the point and is misleading
I haven't seen such blatant racism on these forums for a while. Most religions used to co-habitate incredibly badly with each other. Nothing special about Christians and Muslims here. I'm not sure any two religions got along worse at any point in history than Catholics and Protestants, with the 30 years war and all that. But nobody now would argue that Protestants and Catholics are fundamentally able to live next to each other and that the main stream media* is hiding something. Why? Because most people's mentality here has moved on in the last 400 years and we try not to treat people as outsiders who should be shunned/expelled based on characteristics and aspects of identity that they mostly inherited from their parents. It's a shame that you haven't got the memo and are still working in a tribal, Mesolithic mind set.

*Which I suspect you're defining as all who disagrees with you, because Fox and the Daily Mail both have huge audiences and yet frequently talk about Muslims living in western countries as problematic.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,815
Sydney
#16
What as this got to do with racism , we are talking religion
In europe , there is NO problem with Egyptian Copts , Buddhist are easily accepted , Bahias are no issue
animists live in harmony , Hindus avoid confrontation

Muslims have frictions with all of those groups ,
there is the house of peace and the house of strife , by those tenets all others are an object of conflict
 
Mar 2018
756
UK
#17
Discriminating people on the basis of religion is commonly called racism. My objection is on gross generalisations and discrimination against individuals for being members of a group, just because of the action of a handful of members of that group. Are you saying that you dislike being called a racist but are happy to admit to judge and encourage discrimination of others based on their religion?

In the UK (or, for that matter, just everywhere in western europe) Muslims are less likely to commit crimes against Christians than other Christians are; obviously taking into account effects like the ratio of the different populations and average economic status. Similarly about Christians committing crimes against Muslims. That all but proves that
the hostility to Muslims is the general attitude among traditional christians
the hostility to christians is the general attitude among traditional Muslims
is simply not true. It is true that there is a small minority of each who hates the others, but that's hardly unique. Give me any two groups of people and I can find a few percent of either group who hate the other. It's absolutely nothing to do with Islam in particular. I mean, Christianity and Judaism haven't always gotten along. Or Buddhism and Hinduism. Or Hinduism and Jainism. Or Christianity and pagan religions. Or Christianity and other branches of Christianity. Or any pair of non-vaguely-centrist political view points. And that's not just historical facts, these tensions are all simmering currently in various places in the world, and every so often they erupt into outright violence. Statistically, as a Remainer living in the UK I'm more likely to be killed by a Brexiteer for holding that political viewpoint than I am to be killed by a Muslim for being Christian.

I think what's happening here is that you are using your personal racism towards Islam to interpret historical events as an us-vs-them in ethno-religious lines. You then see history along those lines and deduce from your flawed interpretation that, because it used to be an us-vs-them, it must now also be an us-vs-them with the same teams. Note that in this case, both the premise and the deductions are fundamentally flawed. This is a standard cognitive bias: a prior opinion leads to a biased interpretation of the facts, which - having been distorted - are now used as evidence to reinforce the original opinion. I hope that you'll spend the few minutes needed to look up the basic statistics underlying the paragraph above and hopefully break out of the vicious circle.
 
Sep 2014
931
Texas
#18
Well I've written it many times before of course but I'll try and summarise it briefly and maybe from a different angle? The main expulsions of moriscos were in 1609-11.

When the Visigoths 'inherited' Hispania they were (very roughly) a people of 400,000 in a population of around 4m (well, between 2 and 7 million, depending who you believe). Some of the Hispano-Roman aristocrary and church particpated in government, at least initially. When the 'arab empire' took over, many local hierarchies stayed in place (usually Visigothic), converting to islam sooner or later. Immigration of 'muslim troops' is estimated between 25,000 and 100,000 in the 8th century. presumably there were some family and whole clans as well, whist the Caliphal army under Almanzor imported thousands of slavs and berbers (more) in the 10th century. Enforcement of islam became harsher with Almanzor, then Almoravids and Almohads. By the milennium and just after, nearly all the population was islamic. Which is basically mostly our original 4m or so plus some immigrants from various arabic and North African countries. Give or take a few nuances this is the basis of the population of muslim Spain.

By around 720 the populations of tiny rump states like Asturias, later Aragon etc were tiny. This was a major problem and eventually led to cunning inventions like the tomb of St James the Apostle, which had an amazing effect on getting Asturias 'European' recognition, increasing immigration economy etc etc. Over time this immigration from France and other areas was needed to fill the big gaps in Christian populations later needed to repopulate conquered areas and 'nomansland' etc.

800 years is such a long time but very roughly the rump of the population of musim Spain, and therefore the rump of the moriscos expelled - usually as a result of misguided uprisings - had to be originally hispano-roman-Visigothic (themselves all a mixture) in etnithicity, if that is what you call it. 'Repopulators' had to be mainly descended from immigranst, due to the tiny populations of Asturias and Aragon to start with.

In many areas (starting with the kingdom of Toledo) populations assimilated to Christianity and disappeared into the population. But in the Kingdom of Valencia, for example, muslim roots were kept alive (and allowed to be, they drove the economy) and hence they came to suffer in the expulsions - many who didn't speak any arabic at all were sent to North Africa. And their encestors may have been in 'Spain' for over 1000 years or more. populations in , for example, Murcia and Menorca, assimilated peacefully. Only to rebel decades later which led to them being thrown out. Cruelly.
The Spaniards thought throwing out the Muslims would protect them from the Mediterranean slave trade. We all know that didn't work.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,815
Sydney
#19
" Discriminating people on the basis of religion is commonly called racism "

this is obfuscation
words have a meaning , Muslims are not a race ,
As I wrote above Islam , itself describe non believers as " the house of strife "
a cursory reading of history and of more recent medias demonstrate this

the argument that it involve a minority is also specious
extreme actions are always undertaken by a minority
with the majority not repressing them but tolerating their extremism
 
Likes: martin76
Sep 2012
3,886
Bulgaria
#20
Saqaliba were mentioned, enslaved slavic ppl who lived in the islamic territories incl Iberian peninsula and perhaps they played certain role in ethnogenesis of Moriscos. I am not expert on the issue, John and Martin are, so i kindly ask, could you please share your knowledge about who saqaliba were, how many were they etc.