What happens to Zionism if the Crusader states survive up to the modern era?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
This scenario is highly speculative due to the PoD for this scenario being extremely far back. That said, though, it's an interesting question and thus I decided to ask it here: If the Crusader states would have somehow survived, what would have happened to the Zionist movement centuries later had this movement still developed? As in, where exactly would the Zionists seek a Jewish homeland if Palestine is already occupied by the Crusader states? Would they try to convince the Crusader states (especially the Kingdom of Jerusalem or whatever replaces it over the centuries) to open their doors to large-scale Jewish immigration? Or would the Zionists have sought to create a Jewish state elsewhere in this scenario--and if so, where?

Any thoughts on this?
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
There is no chance whatsoever that the Crusader states would survive to the present day.

They barely lasted a century.
Actually, they lasted for almost two centuries. Also, I think that what hurt them was Frederick Barbarossa's death on the way during the Third Crusade. Had Barbarossa lived (maybe his heart attack wouldn't have been fatal had he not been crossing the water while he was having it), the Third Crusade might have been more successful--managing to conquer Jerusalem. In such a scenario, maybe the Crusader states would be able to exploit the power vacuum caused by Saladin's death to expand further or at the very least to strengthen themselves and solidify their defenses. Of course, it might also help if the Byzantine Empire avoids the events of 1204 and manages to recover from its post-1180 turmoil. In such a scenario, maybe a Crusader-Byzantine alliance could be created?

Also, I wonder if Europeans would have been more willing to continue assisting the Crusaders had the Crusaders kept Jerusalem.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
You have two impossibilities in this "if" of Yours.

The first one was already pointed by Naomasa.

The second is:
... Or would the Zionists have sought to create a Jewish state elsewhere in this scenario ...
That's "what if the tigers would be ruminants"?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
You have two impossibilities in this "if" of Yours.

The first one was already pointed by Naomasa.
I already responded to Naomasa here. Had a particular European power been willing to aggressively continue sponsoring the Crusader states for centuries, there is a chance that they would have survived up to the modern era.

The second is:

That's "what if the tigers would be ruminants"?
Some Zionists did flirt with alternative locations for a Jewish homeland, though.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,368
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Actually, they lasted for almost two centuries. Also, I think that what hurt them was Frederick Barbarossa's death on the way during the Third Crusade. Had Barbarossa lived (maybe his heart attack wouldn't have been fatal had he not been crossing the water while he was having it), the Third Crusade might have been more successful--managing to conquer Jerusalem. In such a scenario, maybe the Crusader states would be able to exploit the power vacuum caused by Saladin's death to expand further or at the very least to strengthen themselves and solidify their defenses. Of course, it might also help if the Byzantine Empire avoids the events of 1204 and manages to recover from its post-1180 turmoil. In such a scenario, maybe a Crusader-Byzantine alliance could be created?

Also, I wonder if Europeans would have been more willing to continue assisting the Crusaders had the Crusaders kept Jerusalem.
The states were weak and barely functional as states. They ended up at various stages vassals of multiple powers and always at the risk of being conquered. Being so far from the European powers that established them, who was going to finance and prop them up once the Crusaders had gone home - and the Byzantine Empire was gone?
 
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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,368
T'Republic of Yorkshire
I already responded to Naomasa here. Had a particular European power been willing to aggressively continue sponsoring the Crusader states for centuries, there is a chance that they would have survived up to the modern era.
Not a chance. Who was going to send endless military expeditions to prop them up when they had far more pressing things to deal with at home?
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
I already responded to Naomasa here. Had a particular European power been willing to aggressively continue sponsoring the Crusader states for centuries, there is a chance that they would have survived up to the modern era.



Some Zionists did flirt with alternative locations for a Jewish homeland, though.
Sorry, my friend: in my opinion, those two points are too improbable (well, impossible to me) for continuing. So I leave You on this 'if" (hope You don't mind).
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,239
SoCal
The states were weak and barely functional as states. They ended up at various stages vassals of multiple powers and always at the risk of being conquered. Being so far from the European powers that established them, who was going to finance and prop them up once the Crusaders had gone home - and the Byzantine Empire was gone?
Didn't sizable numbers of Franks (Western Europeans) permanently settle in the Crusader states, though? For instance, knights. As for the Byzantines, their fall was very far from pre-ordained. What severely hurt them was Emperor Manuel's death without an adult male heir in 1180 as well as the sack and conquest of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade in 1204.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,368
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Didn't sizable numbers of Franks (Western Europeans) permanently settle in the Crusader states, though? For instance, knights. As for the Byzantines, their fall was very far from pre-ordained. What severely hurt them was Emperor Manuel's death without an adult male heir in 1180 as well as the sack and conquest of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade in 1204.
No, relatively few knights settled in the holy land.

As for Manuel, Myriokephalon.
 
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