What happens to Zionism if the Crusader states survive up to the modern era?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,197
SoCal
#11
No, relatively few knights settled in the holy land.

As for Manuel, Myriokephalon.
Here, it mentions that up to 120,000 Franks lived in the Crusader states:

Kingdom of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

That's certainly not nothing, even if it is far below a majority.

Ad for Myriokephalon, please keep in mind that, AFAIK, that battle merely confirmed the status quo in Anatolia--with the Byzantines continuing to hold onto the Anatolian coastline while the Turks continued to hold onto the Anatolian highlands. After Myriokephalon, there certainly wasn't an immediate Turkish incursion into the Anatolian coastline like there was after Manzikert in 1071.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#12
Here, it mentions that up to 120,000 Franks lived in the Crusader states:

Kingdom of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

That's certainly not nothing, even if it is far below a majority.
*At most* 120,000. And Franks =/= knights, or even a viable military force.

Ad for Myriokephalon, please keep in mind that, AFAIK, that battle merely confirmed the status quo in Anatolia--with the Byzantines continuing to hold onto the Anatolian coastline while the Turks continued to hold onto the Anatolian highlands. After Myriokephalon, there certainly wasn't an immediate Turkish incursion into the Anatolian coastline like there was after Manzikert in 1071.
The battle left the Byzantines exposed in Anatolia - the frontier that was their eventual downfall. And it proved that they *couldn't* reconquer it.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,197
SoCal
#13
*At most* 120,000. And Franks =/= knights, or even a viable military force.
One could draft all of the healthy young and middle-aged men among them into the military if one was really desperate, no?

The battle left the Byzantines exposed in Anatolia - the frontier that was their eventual downfall. And it proved that they *couldn't* reconquer it.
@Kirialax previously argued that the loss of the Anatolian interior wasn't that crucial for the Byzantines since it didn't have too much value other than perhaps strategic value, though. For instance, Kirialax argued that few Byzantine landowners actually held much land in the Anatolian interior after 1100 or so and that the real valuable land in Anatolia was around the coasts--land that could continuously be resupplied by sea in the event of a Turkic attack on it.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#14
One could draft all of the healthy young and middle-aged men among them into the military if one was really desperate, no?
And have them slaughtered on the battlefield, leaving your city stripped of any productive population?



@Kirialax previously argued that the loss of the Anatolian interior wasn't that crucial for the Byzantines since it didn't have too much value other than perhaps strategic value, though. For instance, Kirialax argued that few Byzantine landowners actually held much land in the Anatolian interior after 1100 or so and that the real valuable land in Anatolia was around the coasts--land that could continuously be resupplied by sea in the event of a Turkic attack on it.
That's not the point. The Anatolian frontier was where the Byzantines had a hostile enemy that they were unable to contain and fend off, the land value of the land was irrelevant.

Make your OWN arguments, don't rely on what someone else has argued.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,197
SoCal
#15
And have them slaughtered on the battlefield, leaving your city stripped of any productive population?
Well, one could have women work if one is ahead of one's time. I mean, in Israel nowadays, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish women often both work and have lots of babies.

That's not the point. The Anatolian frontier was where the Byzantines had a hostile enemy that they were unable to contain and fend off, the land value of the land was irrelevant.
But as long as that enemy was contained, there shouldn't be too much of a problem--should there be? After all, South Korea hasn't eliminated North Korea during the Korean War but it is nevertheless able to contain it for over 65 years since 1953.

Make your OWN arguments, don't rely on what someone else has argued.
I actually did hold a similar opinion to yours on this issue, but I then listened to Kiralax's arguments and changed my mind on this. Kirialax is much more knowledgeable about Byzantine history than I am and thus I think that giving some deference to his arguments might be a wise move on my own part. If anything will ever seriously shake my faith in his arguments, though, then I might reconsider my support of these arguments.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#16
Well, one could have women work if one is ahead of one's time. I mean, in Israel nowadays, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish women often both work and have lots of babies.
We are NOT talking about people who were ahead of their time.

But as long as that enemy was contained, there shouldn't be too much of a problem--should there be? After all, South Korea hasn't eliminated North Korea during the Korean War but it is nevertheless able to contain it for over 65 years since 1953.
They WEREN'T contained.

I actually did hold a similar opinion to yours on this issue, but I then listened to Kiralax's arguments and changed my mind on this. Kirialax is much more knowledgeable about Byzantine history than I am and thus I think that giving some deference to his arguments might be a wise move on my own part. If anything will ever seriously shake my faith in his arguments, though, then I might reconsider my support of these arguments.
Then you're not demonstrating your understanding of his arguments.
 
Likes: Modor

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#20
Do you think that the Seljuk Turks in Rum could have captured and permanently held onto any Anatolian coastal territories in the late 12th century?
Whether they could or not is not important. They didn't need to.

The Byzantines needed to dominate the Turks if they wanted to secure their long term survival. And they didn't.
 

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