What if Africa had more domesticable animals?

Apr 2010
16,748
Slovakia
You made an earlier claim that throughout recorded history that N. Africa civilization was separate from subsaharan civilization. This is erroneous, as throughout Ancient history, the languages and populations of N. Africa have deep links and even origins from subsaharan Africa or the Sahara desert itself.
Yes they kept links. However links which connected North Africa to Mediterranean and Middle East were always much stronger. Islam is one of those links.

Btw, Sahara was not always so bare as is today.

It doesn't matter if Islam did not originate from Subsaharan Africa. I just don't see how in the premodern era that countries like Sudan, where they spoke Arabic and practised sharia was less close to Libya or Egypt than Greece. This is what you seem to be claiming: mostly that subsaharan Africa as a whole was less close to N. Africa throughout recorded history.
I claimed Egypt and Libya have more in common with Greece than with Congo. And I firmly stand behind that claim.

The unity or cohesion within the Arab world today is more likely than not the result of Arab nationalism of the late 19th century or maybe later and has nothing to do with the medieval era of ancient times.
Egypt after conquest always was one of the centres of Islam. It was and still is one of the most influential Islamic countries.
 

mansamusa

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
3,308
Yes they kept links. However links which connected North Africa to Mediterranean and Middle East were always much stronger. Islam is one of those links.

Btw, Sahara was not always so bare as is today.


I claimed Egypt and Libya have more in common with Greece than with Congo. And I firmly stand behind that claim.


Egypt after conquest always was one of the centres of Islam. It was and still is one of the most influential Islamic countries.
As far as I am aware most Mediterranean countries on the European side like Greece are Christian not moslem, so am struggling to understand what it is you are saying here.
And I know the Sahara desert was not always desert that's why your separation of n. Africa from subsharan Africa makes no sense.

The congo is one country in Africa and does not represent the whole of subsaharan Africa. Why to you keep reminding us off your belief that Libya or Egypt is closer to Greece than Congo.
 

Fantasus

Ad Honorem
Jan 2012
2,381
Northern part of European lowland
Since the obstacles to the introduction and use of domesticated animals in large parts of Africa was greater then in much of "Eurasia" that alone was a great factor making the histories of those regions different, as Diamond says. That of course does not exclude the importance of other factors for long-range communication and transport, particularly by water. While Africa has great rivers and lakes usable for internal boat and ship communication, it has not much of "internal sea", though part of the Meditteranean and Red Sea and Gulf of Aden borders to that continent. If we look at distances, Africa from North to South is very close to twice as large as Europe, from Southern Greece to Northern Norway. To sum it up: with such big differences of the environments of both parts of the World, their histories almost had to go in entirely different directions for long periods, even if they are not that distant from each other. In some ways European and African natural environments can be seen as two opposites or "poles".
 

dreamregent

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
4,346
Coastal Florida
I claimed Egypt and Libya have more in common with Greece than with Congo. And I firmly stand behind that claim.
During what period? I'm not so sure I'd stand so firmly behind this. Significant Greek admixture came rather late whereas there was a constant stream of African admixture coming into Egypt from further south all through its history and long before the period of recorded history began. The influences are rather palpable and, dare I say, obvious in everything from the people themselves to the archaeological remains.

Also, when compared to Egypt's overall history, the Islam connection is practically a new invention. I don't think it's nearly as significant of a connection as other African influences have been.
 
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Apr 2010
16,748
Slovakia
As far as I am aware most Mediterranean countries on the European side like Greece are Christian not moslem, so am struggling to understand what it is you are saying here.
Christianity and Islam are very similar in number of ways and have origin in the same culture. They all come from Judaism which is based in religious and cultural traditions of Middle East. Again, Christianity and Islam both connect North Africa to Mediterranean and not to rest of Africa.

And I know the Sahara desert was not always desert that's why your separation of n. Africa from subsharan Africa makes no sense.
Sahara made less of an obstacle in the past to transport and communication then it does now. Yet North Africa was connected more to Mediteraean sea than to Sub-Saharan Africa ...it just reinforce what I said: in the past, water was connection and land was obstacle.

The congo is one country in Africa and does not represent the whole of subsaharan Africa. Why to you keep reminding us off your belief that Libya or Egypt is closer to Greece than Congo.
Because despite what I said is perfectly correct you keep trying to argue with it ;)
 

mansamusa

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
3,308
Christianity and Islam are very similar in number of ways and have origin in the same culture. They all come from Judaism which is based in religious and cultural traditions of Middle East. Again, Christianity and Islam both connect North Africa to Mediterranean and not to rest of Africa.


Sahara made less of an obstacle in the past to transport and communication then it does now. Yet North Africa was connected more to Mediteraean sea than to Sub-Saharan Africa ...it just reinforce what I said: in the past, water was connection and land was obstacle.


Because despite what I said is perfectly correct you keep trying to argue with it ;)
Arras if Christianity or Islam connect n. Africa to the Mediterranean why wouldn't the same be true for subsaharan Africa? Ethiopia has an ancient christian culture and Islam is a major religion in significant parts of subsaharan Africa.

There are many more cultures in Subsaharan africa speaking arabic or writing in arabic script both in the past and now than in the European side of the mediterranean. You are just simply making no sense.

And anyone who says the sahara desert was an obstacle to trade equally makes no sense:
The Trans-Saharan Gold Trade (7th–14th century) | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
And by the way what is your idea of the Sahara and its climatic history? Can you give us a timeframe as to when the Sahara was less of an obstacle to transport or communication. Was it before or during recorded history? Because I suspect you are confused on that point.

And my point about the. Kongo Is that it doesnot represent all of subsajharan Africa. What is true for the Congo cannot be true for many other parts of subsaharan Africa. Why are you unable to grasp that? And I gave the example of the KanemBornu empire based in Chad and including parts of Libya to prove connections between Libya and other parts of subsaharan Africa.

I could also add that nomadic cultures such as the tuarerg who are native to both Libya and west Africa is more evidernce of connections betweeen
Libya and Subsaharan Africa.
 
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