what if germany joined the war in 1943 ?

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,955
San Antonio, Tx
I suggest this is a very likely scenario.

The other problem for Germany. No war, would have seen them bankrupt by mid 1940.
That’s correct: without their conquests and the subsequent looting of national treasuries, the Germans would have been bankrupt. The Germans conquered many countries, but they made no friends anywhere.
 
Jun 2017
3,025
Connecticut
some generals of hitler offered him that . but he wanted to settle the poland matter (invasion of poland ) . he thought Britain would remain unresponsive to the invasion of poland . but he was wrong .

if they joined to war in 1943 , they could use their new technology in battle but they would have been given enough time to mobilize to allies . what's your thoughts ?
People talk about World War as if this lineup of teams. But A the Germans started WWII(or World War 1939-1939 per the Times) and B the Germans won WWII in 1940 if viewed through the lens of 1940. It was their choice to bring the USSR and USA into it who defeated them with the UK's survival and Germany's alliance with Japan being the connecting threads of otherwise seperate conflicts. This is why people get confused when some people say WWII started in 1937 not 1939. Well we're saying that academically cause the conflict started in 1937 eventually got mixed with what happened in Europe. Germany opened up these fronts and expanded the conflict it was not something they could join or not because they started it.

Per holding off on the USSR attack, militarily the Germans picked the right time and things could not have went better. The Soviet regime incurred defeats no other regime would have weathered(compare the success of Babarossa to what caused the Russian people to revolt in 1917-1918) because the Nazis were determined to slaughter the population which meant continuing was the only option moving the goal post of what was neccessary to finish the USSR a great deal, conventionally they did enough and then some. Time favored the USSR due to their rapid industrialization, the element of surprise due to the non aggression pact that wouldn't always be there, and the fact the USSR's officer core was young and inexperienced due to a purgue several years before. Germany had the perfect conditions to defeat Russia and if there aims were a traditional victory to gain territorial/political concessions instead of mass genocide they would have won. The difficulty of conquering Russia has been grossly overrated due to it's size and weather(defeating or even conquering Russia would not require taking all that land and most of the population centers are relatively close to the border)which had frozen Napoleon's pre industrial army, what did the Germans in was the fact they were Nazis and what their goals were. Fact is Germans got two full years to campaign after the winter of 1941 ended where they had the advantage and geographically had to cover almost no ground compared to what they'd done in Barbarossa and they couldn't do it. A little luck could have gotten it all done in one swoop in 1941(Mussolini's Balkan front might have changed that) but their tactics and the resistance it inspired was far more of an issue.

The Soviets had over twice the people as Nazi Germany and could inccur losses no other country could and still have a massive numerical advantage. If the Soviets lost the will to fight this wouldn't have mattered(like in WWI). The Eastern front also favored numbers over technology in both world wars relative to the West given the vast space, meaning there was no trench warfare, tanks and bombers had more ground to cover etc. So Russia's technological inferiority(specifically air superiority which is key regardless of the battlefield assuming the planes get there) was never going to mean what it did on other fronts. Look at how the Allies pulverized German cities in 1944 or how the Axis bombed Poland and France, the distance from air fields and between major centers and the vastness of the front made this impossible to do with the same effectiveness especially after the initial strike. Look at the success of the Berlin airlift versus a similar attempted relief effort in Stalingrad. While helping literally besieged and surrounded soldiers is more challenging in of itself, the location and limitation on how many aircraft they could muster just wasn't workable unlike in Berlin which was relatively right next to many NATO controlled airfields.
 
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Aug 2017
16
Cape Town
Germany could not have "joined" WWII in 43 , considering they were the sole reason that war broke out in the first place. Unlike WW1 that was entirely on Germany ( ok, and Austria, kindish ) and not on the general political situation in Europe.
 
Jun 2017
3,025
Connecticut
Germany could not have "joined" WWII in 43 , considering they were the sole reason that war broke out in the first place. Unlike WW1 that was entirely on Germany ( ok, and Austria, kindish ) and not on the general political situation in Europe.
Exactly. It was a literally a movie plot of an evil guy trying to accomplish a horrible goal. In WWI and the lead up Germany made some mistakes that helped contribute but so did every single great power, Germany's whole diplomatic goal was to keep things the same from 1870 if possible. In WWII Hitler hated the previous settlement after WWI and his whole triprate pact was a sore losers and winners club from WWI to get revenge(he had his Nazi goals talking about rest of alliance). Don't know how Austria is to blame for WWII but is annoying how they use a separate identity to hide from being associated with that era when they approved annexation by an overwhelming margin and had elected Nazis beforehand(the only other independent country to do so off the top of my head) of their own. Austrians aren't Germans after spending centuries ruling the HRE and trying to unify Germany. Hitler was even born in their country making him more Austrian than German by their logic! So I don't get that their entire national identity is based on denial. They would have been annexed in 1934 if Mussolini(then anti German) didn't intervene. That said they weren't large enough to be a factor regardless of their lies about intent.

The French also deserve some blame for Versailles as most of the issues from WWI were their doing that provoked not just Germany but the whole Triparite pact(except Italy who were alienated by the entire international community cause their Prime Minister was unlikeable). They were so desperate to keep Germany down because of it's larger population they created the same desire for revenge that had fueled themselves from 1870 to 1914. People also pretend that the French couldn't have known what they were doing and the consequences. If you study the Versailles confrence this is wrong they were fully aware, what ended up happening was a possibility and didn't care and got what they wanted over all the other powers objections. You can go back and time and tell the French everything and warn them and they would probably be even more enthusiastic to do the same thing except harsher. That being said with the downfall of monarchy fascism(not Nazis generic fascists) filled in the gap on the right in many countries but without the WWI humiliation and France policing Versailles in the 1920s it might not have been filled by Hitler or the weird Socialist/Center alliance with Prussia status quo might have remained in charge. Like with Russia and the Liberals/Socialists falling and being replaced by the Bolsheviks(whose ideas were less popular) due to an environment in WWI where peace was the only issue that mattered, the Weimar Republic was placed into a situation where they couldn't avoid looking weak and humiliated right from the start.
 
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Aug 2017
16
Cape Town
Don't know how Austria is to blame for WWII
The country was indeed annexed, but a large majority was on board with the Nazis. Several major weapon projects and other important stuff were based in Austria, the center of power of the Nazis was in the far southern part of today's Germany anyway and that part is traditionally closer connected to Austria than to the Prussians ( They even have a swearword reserved exclusively for the northern and northeastern Lutherans "Saupreiß", prussian pig, loosely translated ).

There is a reason you have heard of la resistance and the White Rose, but not of an Austrian Der Widerstand.

That is not to say that the Prussians are without blame of course. In fact there is currently a major debate going on in Germany about the role of the Kaiser's family in all of this - His descendants want a huge chunk of artwork, land and buildings restituted from the state and the chance for success of the lawsuit hinges on the role of one son of the last Kaiser. Amoung others, C.Clark is involved with an assessment as well. I won't bore you with the details, if you speak German you can find extensive articles in the press and entire tv shows about it:


Personally I think they should be happy they didn't receive the "French special" and let it go.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,623
Sydney
if the war wasn't cooking in 1939 there wouldn't be a non aggression pact
the situation would be like a Mexican stand off with the western allies , Germany and the Soviets looking warily at each others
each and all of them having some very serious financial problem
war preparation doesn't come cheap
 
Jun 2018
130
Philadelphia, PA
If Germany waited until 1943 to start World War II, I think it would have begun with the invasion of Russia on January 1, rather than an invasion of Poland. Reason being because that extra 4 years would have given the German military strategist more time to deliberate and come up with the best course of action for their victory, which they would have concluded would have been to strike the largest immediate threat being the mobile forces of Russia over the weaker Poland.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
5,623
Sydney
Can't attack the Soviets without passing through Poland , the Koenisberg/ Memel border is to narrow

That was Stalin great fear
German allied with Poland (as they were in fact ) and backed by barely neutral France and Britain
 
Jun 2018
130
Philadelphia, PA
You do not have to attack Poland in order to pass through them. A more discrete invasion probably would have occurred into Soviet territory.