What if Germany Won the Battle of Britain?

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,382
Well yeah it was a bluff cause they were never going to do it. That didn't mean it was impossible or they didn't have the resources. Unlike in WWI where it was almost literally impossible.
I just find it hard to state a level of stupidty that was beyond the Nazis. Hitler was amatauer strategiest of the worst sort he had no idea. He was quite capabel of ordering Sealion which teh German military would have tried against the Navy's better judgement. People may rightfully disagree because judgements of Hitler's decision making process is any pretty sketchy and hypothetical. I think when he ordered th enitail preperations he thought the British might well just roll over, that sea Lion might work. And the cold feet of the Navy and he got less serious about it. But do not think it began as a bluff.
 
Jun 2017
2,909
Connecticut
Sigh...

Emperor, you keep posting the same incorrect statements, they simply aren't true and the more you repeat them doesn't change it. :confused:




The RN wasn't "scaled down so much", while it was slightly smaller, it was far greater relative to the. German fleet,

At the Battle of Jutland in 1916 both Germany & the Royal Navy sailed with every available capital ship, with the RN holding a 37 to 27 advantage over Germany.

By the beginning of WWII, the British have 21 capital ships vs 2 German.
Comparing the captital ships of the RN to entire Axis alliance, there are only 21 Axis capital ships.
In addition to the 21 British ships (15 battleships/battlecruisers + 6 carriers) there are 13 more capital ships building, meaning a total of 34.




It wasn't split in three.
There was the Atlantic fleet, and the Mediterranean fleet.

The Far East fleet was a couple of cruisers, a few destroyers, one light carrier + some Australian ships.
Hardly a major factor in Britain vs Germany in 1939.



Again, simply not correct.
The Germans didn't "abort an entire navy" pre-WWII, on the contrary they were attempting to match British building with Plan Z, they were just heavily outclassed.

In comparison to 21 British capital ships and 13 building, the Germans have 2 capital ships (Scharnhorsts), plus 6 more building (2 Bismarcks, 2 Zeppelins, and the first 2 "H" class super-battleships), plus 7 more planned as part of Plan Z.

The fact that the last 2 German battleships were laid down in July and August 1939 certainly doesn't refelct your assertion of"Germany's pre WWII budgeting decisions where pretty much an entire navy was aborted during construction"
1)Okay well let's go through this one at a time.

2)It wasn't "slightly smaller". The fleet was nominal in size compared to WWI. And yes it was much larger than the German fleet and maybe the ratio by which the British fleet was larger had increased from WWI but what that larger ratio was in terms of numbers was much smaller. Both fleets were smaller and the way scaling works is that numerical advantages are easier to overcome when the larger group is still very small.

For example
10 to 5 is a greater advantage(50%) than 50 to 30(40%) yet the 10 to 5 is a far less secure advantage because both sides are scaled down and it would take less to close that gap even though as a ratio the gap is larger.

3)You've stated a few incorrect facts.
A the British didn't sail with every available capital ship at Jutland a few were not present. One of the QE's and the Dreadnought were among these. Probably more but those two come to mind right off the bat.
B You are expanding the term capital ship for the British and deflating it for the Germans in terms of WWII. You are counting ships that were obsolete for combat purposes in WWII(Royal Sovereigns etc) while not counting the German misfit capital ships that naval historians struggle to put into any existing category(Prinz Eugune's and Deutschland). Also even being generous to the British with the Royal Sovereigns I think the 21 number is still incorrect. Not checking it right now going out to the store but that's too high, especially pre KGV.

4)You just admitted it was split in three pieces IMO. One of the pieces was considerably smaller. But okay for the sake of argument let's say it was split in two. The "Atlantic fleet" wasn't all dedicated to protecting the Channel but also protecting shipping in the Atlantic which is a considerably more broad definition than the Mediterranean.

5)Were aborted after being ordered and planned. Same as the Lion class which were also in the very early stages of construction when construction ceased. Semantic point but okay granted. And the amount of H-ships you've mentioned would have been a serious threat to the British navy. Then again if both navies were constructed as planned that's a different story.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,382
1
B You are expanding the term capital ship for the British and deflating it for the Germans in terms of WWII. You are counting ships that were obsolete for combat purposes in WWII(Royal Sovereigns etc) while not counting the German misfit capital ships that naval historians struggle to put into any existing category(Prinz Eugune's and Deutschland). Also even being generous to the British with the Royal Sovereigns I think the 21 number is still incorrect. Not checking it right now going out to the store but that's too high, especially pre KGV.
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I think you dpoing the Same., The Royal Soveriegns were not obselete for comabt purposes. They would demlosh many German ships, Prinz Eguen Detchlands were not capable of taking on a Royal Soverign, one sided contest. Most of the Germans ships were deeply flawed. And the sheer lack of support. Light cruisers and Destroyers. The vast dominance of British ships was not inconsequential.
 
Jan 2015
3,363
Front Lines of the Pig War
. [/QUOTE]

1)Okay well let's go through this one at a time.

2)It wasn't "slightly smaller". The fleet was nominal in size compared to WWI. And yes it was much larger than the German fleet and maybe the ratio by which the British fleet was larger had increased from WWI but what that larger ratio was in terms of numbers was much smaller. Both fleets were smaller and the way scaling works is that numerical advantages are easier to overcome when the larger group is still very small.
:think: Well yes OK, but numerical disadvantages pretty much impossible to overcome when your enemy is outbuilding you at 250%

Jutland was fought about 2 years after ww1 began, at a point about 2 years into WWII the British could expect to have completed 7 additional capital ships, giving them 28.
Meanwhile, the best case scenario for Germany was 6 capital ships (adding two Bismarcks and two Zeppelins)

Therefore at Jutland Germany was 10 ships short of matching the British total, while at the end of 1941 Germany would still be 22 ships short of matching the British total.

(Assumes no losses in the interim obviously)

.
3)You've stated a few incorrect facts.
A the British didn't sail with every available capital ship at Jutland a few were not present. One of the QE's and the Dreadnought were among these. Probably more but those two come to mind right off the bat.
.
Every "available" capital ship, not every ship.

Dreadnought, Q.E. and Emperor of India were all in refit or drydock for repairs.
 
Jan 2015
3,363
Front Lines of the Pig War
B You are expanding the term capital ship for the British and deflating it for the Germans in terms of WWII.
.
??
Capital ships are battleships, battlecruisers and aircraft carriers.
Nothing else.

(though CVE's usually not considered capital ships)

Wiki said:
The term "capital ship" was first coined in 1909 and formally defined in the limitation treaties of the 1920s and '30s in the Washington Naval Treaty, London Naval Treaty, and Second London Naval Treaty.

In the 20th century, especially in World Wars I and II, typical capital ships would be battleships and battlecruisers. All of the above ships were close to 20,000 tons displacement or heavier, with large caliber guns and heavy armor protection.

Cruisers, despite being important ships, were not considered capital ships
In WWII aircraft carriers were recognised to be capital ships, they were certainly as valuable militarily as battleships
Capital ship - Wikipedia

You are counting ships that were obsolete for combat purposes in WWII(Royal Sovereigns etc)
.
Nobody believes them to be combat obsolete (except you perhaps), and on at least 2 occasions a pair of your powerful modern German capital ships (the two Scharnhorsts) fled from contact with one of these old, "obsolete for combat" WWI era Revenge/Renown class, and on a third incident they abandoned attacking a convoy escorted by the even more venerable HMS Malaya.

1940 - The two German battlecruisers retreat from the lone HMS Renown in a snowstorm, taking damage in the process.
1941 - Same two ship retreat without attacking HX 106, as it's escorted by HMS Ramillies.


while not counting the German misfit capital ships that naval historians struggle to put into any existing category(Prinz Eugune's and Deutschland).
.
Hipper class (Prince Eugen) were heavy cruisers, supposedly built to the heavy cruiser standard. (But the Germans cheated and built them about 3,500 - 4,500 tons over allowable design standard)
No reputable naval authority claims them to be capital ships
Although they are superior to British heavy cruisers (being about 32% heavier at full load), they still have 8 x 8" guns and heavy cruiser protection.

Deutschland class were about 2,500 tons heavier than British heavy cruisers, they had heavier guns and armour than the British, but were several knots slower.
They are still completely outmatched by any British capital ship.
Considering that the British had about 60 cruisers in 1939, including 14 heavy cruisers and 10 of the 9,000 ton Town class, the 5 German ships of the Hipper & Deutschland class were massively outnumbered and outgunned.

Also even being generous to the British with the Royal Sovereigns I think the 21 number is still incorrect. Not checking it right now going out to the store but that's too high, especially pre KGV.
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5 x Queen Elizabeth class
5 x Revenge class
2 x Renown class
1 x Admiral Hood
2 x Nelson class

Aircraft Carriers:
HMS Ark Royal
HMS Glorious
HMS Courageous
HMS Furious
HMS Eagle
HMS Hermes

+ auxiliary carrier HMS Argus

You might argue that by 1939 the HMS Hermes should be downgraded to auxiliary status, but its still the carrier available to the Far East fleet.
 
Last edited:
Jun 2017
2,909
Connecticut
??
Capital ships are battleships, battlecruisers and aircraft carriers.
Nothing else.

(though CVE's usually not considered capital ships)


In WWII aircraft carriers were recognised to be capital ships, they were certainly as valuable militarily as battleships
Capital ship - Wikipedia



Nobody believes them to be combat obsolete (except you perhaps), and on at least 2 occasions a pair of your powerful modern German capital ships (the two Scharnhorsts) fled from contact with one of these old, "obsolete for combat" WWI era Revenge/Renown class, and on a third incident they abandoned attacking a convoy escorted by the even more venerable HMS Malaya.

1940 - The two German battlecruisers retreat from the lone HMS Renown in a snowstorm, taking damage in the process.
1941 - Same two ship retreat without attacking HX 106, as it's escorted by HMS Ramillies.




Hipper class (Prince Eugen) were heavy cruisers, supposedly built to the heavy cruiser standard. (But the Germans cheated and built them about 3,500 - 4,500 tons over allowable design standard)
No reputable naval authority claims them to be capital ships
Although they are superior to British heavy cruisers (being about 32% heavier at full load), they still have 8 x 8" guns and heavy cruiser protection.

Deutschland class were about 2,500 tons heavier than British heavy cruisers, they had heavier guns and armour than the British, but were several knots slower.
They are still completely outmatched by any British capital ship.
Considering that the British had about 60 cruisers in 1939, including 14 heavy cruisers and 10 of the 9,000 ton Town class, the 5 German ships of the Hipper & Deutschland class were massively outnumbered and outgunned.



5 x Queen Elizabeth class
5 x Revenge class
2 x Renown class
1 x Admiral Hood
2 x Nelson class

Aircraft Carriers:
HMS Ark Royal
HMS Glorious
HMS Courageous
HMS Furious
HMS Eagle
HMS Hermes

+ auxiliary carrier HMS Argus

You might argue that by 1939 the HMS Hermes should be downgraded to auxiliary status, but its still the carrier available to the Far East fleet.
Motion to consider aircraft carriers non capital ships in Europe for obvious reasons?

And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete, they were a good 10 knots or slower. In an Operation like Sealion, such a speed advantage would be important no? That is the reasoning the Royal Sovereign's are obsolete not because their guns were weak, because any target could escape.

The Prinz Eugene's are somewhere in betweeen the normally definitions of ships. They are some sort of capital ships along with the pocket battleships.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,382
Motion to consider aircraft carriers non capital ships in Europe for obvious reasons?
Motion denied.

And how was the Bismark done in? The Italians at Taranto? They were sigicnat factor in the balance or Naval power.

And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete, they were a good 10 knots or slower. In an Operation like Sealion, such a speed advantage would be important no? That is the reasoning the Royal Sovereign's are obsolete not because their guns were weak, because any target could escape.
Sealion is very exmpale where the Scharnhorts speend allows them to get awya bt totally failing in their mission. The Royal Soviergns could protect Broitish shiops and attack German ones. If the British wanted to move their ships the Germans wher ehelp;ess to stop them and if the British wanted attack German ships running away and leaving the invasion fleet is hardly a case for effectiness. They could not run down raiders but their presence would stop German attacks and make German defence of their ships at sea untenable.

The Prinz Eugene's are somewhere in betweeen the normally definitions of ships. They are some sort of capital ships along with the pocket battleships.
If start counting cruisers there's a lot of brtish ones. This is counting one way for one side and anotehr for the other.
 
Nov 2014
1,645
Birmingham, UK
1)Okay well let's go through this one at a time.

2)It wasn't "slightly smaller". The fleet was nominal in size compared to WWI. And yes it was much larger than the German fleet and maybe the ratio by which the British fleet was larger had increased from WWI but what that larger ratio was in terms of numbers was much smaller. Both fleets were smaller and the way scaling works is that numerical advantages are easier to overcome when the larger group is still very small.

For example
10 to 5 is a greater advantage(50%) than 50 to 30(40%) yet the 10 to 5 is a far less secure advantage.
how about 114 Destroyers versus 10 destroyers?

how would you assess that as a numerical advantage and ratio?
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,784
Stockport Cheshire UK
And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete, they were a good 10 knots or slower. In an Operation like Sealion, such a speed advantage would be important no? That is the reasoning the Royal Sovereign's are obsolete not because their guns were weak, because any target could escape.
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The German battleships have to protect the invasion fleet, how will running away help ?
Mind you that's not even an option that the invasion fleet has, with a max speed of around 5 knots they are not going anywhere fast.