What if Germany Won the Battle of Britain?

Nov 2014
1,645
Birmingham, UK
Motion to consider aircraft carriers non capital ships in Europe for obvious reasons?

And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete, they were a good 10 knots or slower. In an Operation like Sealion, such a speed advantage would be important no? .
no.

speed advantage not a factor when the ships are supposed to be guarding a very slow convoy of barges
 
Jan 2015
3,363
Front Lines of the Pig War
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4)You just admitted it was split in three pieces IMO. One of the pieces was considerably smaller. But okay for the sake of argument let's say it was split in two. The "Atlantic fleet" wasn't all dedicated to protecting the Channel but also protecting shipping in the Atlantic which is a considerably more broad definition than the Mediterranean.
The fleet wasn't dedicated to protecting the channel, it was assumed that mines, small craft and aircraft could do that.

If the British deploy up to 6 or 7 capital ships to the Med (or Indian Ocean) still leaves a minimum of 10 to 12 Allied capital ships defending the Atlantic.
The British (with some American help in 1942) never had less than 10 operational capital ships in the Atlantic from 1939 to 1945.
After the invasion of Norway until mid-1943 the Germans never had more than 2 capital ship + 1 Panzerschliffe available at the same time, so were always outnumbered 3 to 1 or greater in the Atlantic.


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5)Were aborted after being ordered and planned. Same as the Lion class which were also in the very early stages of construction when construction ceased. Semantic point but okay granted. And the amount of H-ships you've mentioned would have been a serious threat to the British navy. Then again if both navies were constructed as planned that's a different story.


That's the point though, the Germans didn't fail for lack of trying, pre-war they tried to match British capital ship construction, if they'd completed an additional 4 super-battleships, 3 battlecruisers and 3 carriers they would have potentially 14 capital ships.
However, when war broke out it became clear that none of the additional ships would be ready before late '43 at best, so they were all cancelled, except the two Bismarcks.
 
Jan 2015
3,363
Front Lines of the Pig War
Motion to consider aircraft carriers non capital ships in Europe for obvious reasons?
What obvious reason? :think:

Capital ships are what they are.
Warships bigger than 25,000 tons with guns 12" or greater, or fleet aircraft carriers.

And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete, they were a good 10 knots or slower. In an Operation like Sealion, such a speed advantage would be important no?
No.
The 15" guns and 13" belt armour of the Revenge class outmatched the 11" guns and 10.7" main belt of the Scharnhorsts
 
Likes: Futurist
Jan 2015
3,363
Front Lines of the Pig War
And the fact the Scharnhorsts were able to flee the Royal Sovereign's is exactly why they were obsolete


The Prinz Eugene's are somewhere in betweeen the normally definitions of ships. They are some sort of capital ships along with the pocket battleships.
First, not to get too pedantic, there are no Royal Sovereign or Prince Eugene classes in WWII, if you use these terms in a serious historical military discussion you might project a lack of complete knowledge on the subject.

The Royal Sovereign was an ironclad ship class from the 1890s

Royal Sovereign-class battleship - Wikipedia

In WW2 HMS Royal Sovereign was a Revenge class battleship.

Prince Eugene was an Austro-Hungarian casemated battleship, rebuilt from the 1860s Emperor Max class.

In WW2 Prinz Eugen was an Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser.

Here's what a Royal Sovereign class battleship looked like
Royal Sovereign.ロイヤル・ソヴリン.近代世界艦船事典The Encyclopedia of World ,Modern Warships.

roiyarumain1.jpg


Pedantics aside, your claim that the Hipper class were "some kind of capital ship" just doesn't make any sense.
Heavy cruisers have never been considered capital ships, and the Hipper's were not particularly impressive, either on paper or performance.

The Hipper's weren't superlative in guns, armour or speed, only in total tonnage, which is more a result of their high bunkerage and inefficient high-pressure steam plant design than anything.


At "full load" the Hippers were 18,200 tons, compared to 14,500 for the RN Countiies, 14,600 for the Italian Zara's, 15,400 for the Japanese Tone's, and 17,300 for the US Baltimore class.
Therefore they were 25% heavier than the British ships, but only 5% heavier than the Baltimore class.

All the heavy cruisers had 8 x 8" guns in four twin turrets, except for the Americans who had 9, in three triple turrets.
The German ships had 12 x 4" guns in their secondary batteries vs 8 x 4" on the British ships and 8 x 5" on the American or Japanese cruisers, but other than that no real difference.

The Italians & Americans had the strongest armour, up to 6.5" belt, giving priotection vs 6" gun shells.
The Japanese & British had a 4" belt, while the German ships had a maximum belt of just 3.2" (80mm)

The Italian & British gave up speed for armour, with the British getting 31.5 knots from the Kent's, and 32.2 knots from the London/Dorset series, on 80,000 shaft HP via 4 shafts. The Italian design was for 32 knots, but appears to have been a knot or so slower at sea
The much heavier German plant generated 133,000 shaft HP on 3 shafts, however the Hipper's could only make 32.5 knots, slightly slower than the US New Orleans class at 32.7, and over a knot slower than the Japanese Tone cless.

So to sum it up, the German ships had neither the fastest ships, nor the best armoured, nor the most guns, so I'm struggling to see in them what you think is so magnificent. :think:

The performance of the Hippers in the war was hardly spectacular either, with Blücher torpedoed and capsizing in her first battle of the war. Not an impressive result at Barents Sea where the (supposedly) much superior German force of Admiral Hipper & the pocket battleship Lützow with 6 destroyers encountered two 6" gun cruisers (Sheffield & Jamaica) with 6 British destroyers.

Each side lost a destroyer, the Germans retreated with Hipper taking moderate damage from Sheffield, two of her boiler rooms were hit and partially flooded.

Hitler was less than impressed, Raeder resigned and Dönitz barely saved the surface navy from being dismantled.

Battle of the Barents Sea - Wikipedia
 
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