What if the Axis were "the good guys"?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
20,093
SoCal
#21
I'm not aware the German's asked the Soviet people their opinions before they attacked
In this scenario, they would. The OP here explicitly stated that the goal of Operation Barbarossa in this scenario was to free the Soviet peoples from Communist tyranny, no?
 
Nov 2013
582
Kingdom of Sweden
#29
AFAIK, Michael Mills previously said (either here or on the Axis History forum) that conquering all of Poland was a part of the deal that the Nazis had with Stalin in 1939. Hitler wanted to keep a nominally independent German puppet Poland but Stalin rejected the idea of having any Polish state at all. That said, though, Hitler could theoretically go back on this deal after he defeats France in this scenario.
That was indeed the case. However, I would presume that such a deal with the Soviet Union may not exist in this scenario, and if it does, the "good" Hitler will probably plan to go back on the deal all along. Indeed, he might attempt to ally with Poland, expressing his desire that they bring down the Soviet Union together, if only they cede Danzig peacefully. Though that might just be my Hearts of Iron IV experiences speaking :lol:.
Hitler did do that in real life with the exception of Poland and the Baltic countries, no?
I suppose he did, to an extent. In this scenario, however, his offer of support and alliance will extend to Poland (save for Danzig), Czechoslovakia (save for the Sudetenland), the Baltic states as well as the Soviet-occupied territories such as Belarus, Ukraine and the Caucasus states. I only now realize that I did not mention any changes for Italy in the opening post, but I suppose they will not show the same level of aggression towards the Balkans, meaning Yugoslavia and Greece might also be part of this grand anti-Soviet alliance - only, I can not imagine what Italy's ambition might be if not restore the old Roman Empire? Would a hatred for communism be enough to keep Italy at peace with its neighbors?
What is this legitimate Chinese government? The KMT? Or someone else?
Now that is a question I do not feel entirely qualified to answer, in spite of my supposedly greater than average knowledge on Chinese history. In real life, one could argue that Japan had plans (at least originally) to reinstate the Qing dynasty under Puyi, and such a move could very well be attempted more genuinely in this scenario (although I doubt it would be popular among the Chinese people). It is probably more likely for Japan to support the right-wing faction of the Kuomintang as the legitimate successor to Sun Yat-sen's government. No matter who Japan decides to support, they will likely do so generously and immediately upon the outbreak of the Chinese civil war, wanting to keep a strong and unified China as an ally against the western powers. Indeed, it is quite possible that Japan has been the main driving force behind China's industrialization from the very beginning in this scenario, which may see an entirely different relationship between the two giants of Asia.
In such a scenario, the Nazis are probably able to get a lot of Soviet people--especially Ukrainians--to join their war effort. Heck, some anti-Communist Russians might also join the Nazi war effort if the Nazis make it clear that their goal is a liberated and free Russia as opposed to the mass deportation of tens of millions of Slavs east of the Urals. Several dozen million people could form quite a formidable fighting force. In fact, it's possible that this would be enough for the Nazis to be able to bleed the Soviets so dry that the Soviets will agree to a separate peace on relatively pro-Nazi terms. Then, it depends on whether the Western Allies are actually willing to continue the war effort after the USSR's exit from the war.
I certainly agree that this would have a huge impact in the east; I have often heard that Nazi Germany's treatment of Ukrainian civilians had a major influence on their ability to wage war against the Soviet Union, and that it was arguably one of the most irrational and detrimental acts that Germany committed throughout the war. I could see the Soviet Union launching a campaign of terror in an attempt to subjugate or outright neutralize the Ukrainian people, though this might obviously have the opposite effect and bring even more Ukrainians into uprising, as a kind of reversal of what happened in real life for the Germans.
Also, are the Axis actually going to be able to feed the entire population under their rule in such a scenario? After all, without the Holocaust, they are going to have several million additional mouths to feed.
Several million mouths to feed, yes, but also several million additional workers and soldiers (not to mention a few scientists; Einstein and other Jewish physicists staying in Germany might have a significant influence on the German nuclear program as well as the Manhattan Project, no?). I have honestly never heard of any major food shortages in Germany or the other Axis countries except for late in the war.
Point of order here - Without Poland dismembered. How does Germany launch Barbarossa?
Hence the "if". For Germany to launch a wide offensive into the Soviet Union, they would obviously need Poland as an ally, which I suppose could be made possible if Poland perceives the Soviet Union as the greater threat. Would they be willing to give up Danzig in exchange for an alliance with Germany in this scenario? Otherwise, Germany will have to launch the invasion through Romania and be completely reliant on the support of the Ukrainian people to continue their offensive. Without Poland in the fold, there might be a Barbarossa, though Germany will still fight defensively to protect Romania, Finland and (if they do ally with them) Poland against any Soviet aggression. Will a Soviet invasion of Poland still happen without a treaty with Germany, though?
The only way that Britain and France refuse to fight over Poland is if Germany doesn't occupy Czechia earlier.
Which Germany does not in this scenario; they only desire the Sudetenland and may otherwise ask Czechoslovakia to join their alliance against the Soviet Union.
Japan though would be a different story. The European powers would not give up their colonies without a fight, although some may well rethink if there is a real determination among the local people for independence. Independence may well be offered in return for the new nation having a pro European policy instead of getting into bed with Japan.
Presuming that Japan does go south in December 1941, I see no reason that the Philippines, Indochina and Indonesia would not be conquered swiftly as they were in real life - only this time, they will be liberated under independent governments, and Japan would altruistically aid them in developing and industrializing, as well as equipping and training their militaries. By the time the westerns return to these nations (if they do so), resistance will probably be fierce, determined and effective, making occupation and recolonization almost impossible. It all depends on how much time is given to the Allies to rethink their position before the Japanese attack, and I still believe that many Asian independence movements would rather ally with Japan (now backed by a somewhat unified China, and possibly an independent and industrialized Korea as well) than their old colonial masters.
If Germany does not persecute the Jews German science and weapons development probably receives a boost. Many Jews were scientists and technicians who would have worked to develop Germany's wonder weapons if not for Nazi racial policies.
Absolutely. This is an interesting point that could very well have a great influence on the development of advanced weaponry, including the atomic bomb - and not only a positive impact for Germany, but a negative one for the Allies.
 
Likes: Futurist
Oct 2016
1,110
Merryland
#30
If Hitler had settled for the Rhine, Anschluss, and Czechoslovakia, his regime might have lasted indefinitely. (look how long Franco lasted in Spain).
a better foreign ministry might have coaxed France and UK into allowing a move into Poland.
very real possibility that the USSR might have attacked Greater Germany (and Poland) in the mid 1940s; in that case France/UK might have conceivably helped Hitler as no one wanted the USSR to dominate Europe. very likely air support and supplies and let the Germans do the actual fighting.

an awful lot of Ukrainians etc welcomed the Germans, and more tactful diplomacy might have lured them into being allies instead of partisans. Germany took the Ukraine partly for the food but they didn't get much out of it. the Ukrainians really hated the soviet regime and were very disappointed the Germans weren't more friendly.

what about Italy? I don't think the world would have done much about Mussolini's African aggression but they might not have tolerated an attack on Greece.

Japan had lots of potential anti-colonial native Asian support but their brutality nullified. a true co-prosperity sphere could have won a lot of good will.
I could see them sneaking support into India to try to get them to go independent of the UK.
 
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