What if 'The Second Miracle of the House of Brandenburg' never happened?

Mar 2016
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Which Prussian territory would France have taken, though? I don't see any Prussian territories that France could have easily taken based on this map of Prussia's territorial possessions in 1763:



Prussia didn't actually acquire the Rhineland until 1815.
I believe they were interested in the Duchy of Cleves (they were the ones to occupy it during the war, and had occupied it in the past too).
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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I believe they were interested in the Duchy of Cleves (they were the ones to occupy it during the war, and had occupied it in the past too).
That would require them to conquer the entire Rhineland, though. Was Louis XV actually into this after being willing to give up the Austrian Netherlands in 1748?
 
Mar 2016
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That would require them to conquer the entire Rhineland, though. Was Louis XV actually into this after being willing to give up the Austrian Netherlands in 1748?
Why would France need to conquer “the entire Rhineland”? There was no rule which said a country’s territory needed to be contiguous.
 
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Futurist

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Prussia did have several small and valuable territories in the Rhineland, they are the westernmost territories on the map.
France was to be given the Austrian Netherlands in exchange for Parma, financial and military support during the war.
Parma was going to go to Austria? Was France actually in a position to give away Parma?

Also, it's quite interesting that Louis XV wanted the Austrian Netherlands so badly in 1763 when he was eagerly willing to give them up just 15 years earlier in 1748.

If the Vistula river was the border, there would be a large chunk between Austrian and Russian territory.
Austria and Russia are going to annex the rest of Poland, though.

Yes, Norwegians had a long had a rivalry with Sweden.
OK.

I didn't say the germans wouldn't be loyal to the Russians. In this scenario they would be ruled by Poland anyway.
Only as long as Russia will refrain from partitioning Poland.
 

Futurist

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Why would France need to conquer “the entire Rhineland”? There was no rule which said a country’s territory needed to be contiguous.
Well, how else was France going to get to this territory? By forcing neighboring states to let its forces through them?
 
Mar 2016
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Well, how else was France going to get to this territory? By forcing neighboring states to let its forces through them?
Not necessarily through force. Several Rhineland states were unofficial protectorates/clients of France. Also, who’s gonna stop the French even if they do march through without permission?
 
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Apr 2017
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Parma was going to go to Austria? Was France actually in a position to give away Parma?

Also, it's quite interesting that Louis XV wanted the Austrian Netherlands so badly in 1763 when he was eagerly willing to give them up just 15 years earlier in 1748.

Austria and Russia are going to annex the rest of Poland, though.

OK.

Only as long as Russia will refrain from partitioning Poland.
Parma was under heavy French influence at the time.
Without Frederick the great to negotiate the idea, I doubt it. They would go to war over ottoman territory and change history drastically.
Russia wouldn't have anyone to partition it with, instead they would keep them as a semi-puppet until their strong enough to take it all.

Non-contiguous territories weren't unusual for the time, Prussia is a prime example.
 
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Futurist

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Parma was under heavy French influence at the time.
Interesting. I know that their dukes were separate because their dukes are descended in the male line from the Spanish Bourbons--who removed themselves from the line of succession to the French throne back in 1713.

Without Frederick the great to negotiate the idea, I doubt it. They would go to war over ottoman territory and change history drastically.
What would the results of this war/these wars have been?

Russia wouldn't have anyone to partition it with, instead they would keep them as a semi-puppet until their strong enough to take it all.
They could partition it with Austria even if Prussia is completely wiped off of the map, no?

Non-contiguous territories weren't unusual for the time, Prussia is a prime example.
Yes, but Prussia was connected through sea travel, no? As in, one could travel from one part of Prussia to another part of Prussia by sea without having to go through anyone else's territory. Of course, though, this isn't actually true for western Prussia.
 

Futurist

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BTW, what are your thoughts on my new Russia thread near the top of this forum section, VP?
 
Apr 2017
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Interesting. I know that their dukes were separate because their dukes are descended in the male line from the Spanish Bourbons--who removed themselves from the line of succession to the French throne back in 1713.

What would the results of this war/these wars have been?

They could partition it with Austria even if Prussia is completely wiped off of the map, no?

Yes, but Prussia was connected through sea travel, no? As in, one could travel from one part of Prussia to another part of Prussia by sea without having to go through anyone else's territory. Of course, though, this isn't actually true for western Prussia.
Hard to say but without Prussia as an ally i'd imagine Russia would lose to the Austro-Ottomans.
No, they would be at war with them over ottoman territory. As I said Frederick the great is the one who averted this.
No actually. River travel was problematic in itself. Some river baron could throw some chains across and deny you access if you didn't pay whatever he felt like demanding. This is why Austria didn't exploit its river connections to the Baltic and black sea. Hostile states would block them. If you didn't have a land connection you had to be friendly or imposing to the connecting states.

Which one?
 
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