What is the true chronology of Ancient Egypt?

Todd Feinman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2013
6,586
Planet Nine, Oregon
This seems informative:
Bayesian statistical analysis is used to look at the data.
 
Feb 2011
823
Kitchener. Ont.
There are many ways that carbon dating can be out by hundreds of years. Influence from volcanic gas, structures built from old wood, structures built from wood from the inner parts of an old tree, a differing amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere compared to what is estimated, etc. It would be nice if carbon dating could give us a definite dates, even to within a few hundred years, but it just can't.
Yes, but the people who conduct this research are well aware of these issues.
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,999
Australia
Yes, but the people who conduct this research are well aware of these issues.
And they generally ignore them. When you ask for a specimen to be carbon dated, one of the questions they ask is "what date were you expecting?" If there is any ambiguity in the results, they will skew the interpretation of the results to meet the archaeologist's expectations.
 
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Mar 2018
889
UK
And they generally ignore them. When you ask for a specimen to be carbon dated, one of the questions they ask is "what date were you expecting?" If there is any ambiguity in the results, they will skew the interpretation of the results to meet the archaeologist's expectations.
Jesus Christ...
There's still some way to go before Archaeology can be considered a serious science. It sounds like its somewhere between Economics and Psychology at the moment ...
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,365
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Jesus Christ...
There's still some way to go before Archaeology can be considered a serious science. It sounds like its somewhere between Economics and Psychology at the moment ...
Archaeology is not an "exact science" but a scientific doctrine. In the beginning it was like early psychology: a typical "human science", now [after evolving, like psychology] it's a scientific doctrine.

The limit of these disciplines is obvious: they cannot be totally experimental.

1. Because of reality. You cannot recreate today the historical context of the battle at Alesia to make an experiment to find out if a theory is correct or not. Don't think to the group that reenact: they don't live like legionaries, they don't have their limited education, they don't reach the battle field marching for weeks, they don't eat what legionaries ate, present Gauls are not the warriors or Vergingetorix ... and so on.

2. Ethical reasons. You cannot make an experiment in psychology to find out how many persons would prefer the suicide to burn alive in a oven. [If you ignore ethic, it would be a mere scientific behavioral experiment!].

Anyway, becoming scientific doctrines they have adopted [in the possible measure] the scientific method. This has improved Economy, Psychology, Archaeology, History, Sociology ...

*********** Back to the topic ***********

May be we should enter details and try and check the datation of a Monarch of the early dynasties ...
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,999
Australia
May be we should enter details and try and check the datation of a Monarch of the early dynasties ...
You can't do it with Egypt. The best option is to do as Furlong did and use contemporary rulers such as the Assyrians that can be dated more firmly. His conclusion was that 200 years needed to be removed from the Egyptian chronology to enable it to be reconciled with the Assyrian one.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,365
Italy, Lago Maggiore
You can't do it with Egypt. The best option is to do as Furlong did and use a contemporary rulers such as the Assyrians that can be dated more firmly. His conclusion was that 200 years needed to be removed from the Egyptian chronology to enable it to be reconciled with the Assyrian one.
I'm aware of the work by Furlong related to late Bronze Age, did he did something similar also about the early Egyptian dynasties? Did he try and put Tudiya in correspondence with an Egyptian early Monarch?
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,999
Australia
I'm aware of the work by Furlong related to late Bronze Age, did he did something similar also about the early Egyptian dynasties? Did he try and put Tudiya in correspondence with an Egyptian early Monarch?
People have been trying to do that for over a century. One of the chief proponents of this is Kenneth Kitchen. He is also one of the most vocal opponents of revising the Egyptian chronology because it would render his life's work meaningless.

These might prove edifying
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,365
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I'm more interested in the early dynasties. If there is a mistake in the "conventional" chronology around the end of the Bronze Age, this doesn't mean that the entire Egyptian chronology is wrong. If some monarchs in an intermediate period were overlapping, we cannot exclude the contrary about the other intermediate periods.

This can be checked starting from the beginning, the early dynasties.

There are 3 sources which we can consider "original" [that is to say Ancient Egyptian] about this. The problem is that two of them are a selection of Monarchs based on traditional / "religious" [so, political, in that context] criteria. I make reference to the list of Abydos and the one of Saqqara. This means that we have to integrate them to calculate the sum of the years of reign. And we need archaeology as well: the Sovereigns of the Amarna Periods have been simply excluded ...

The third one, which is near to where I live, in Turin, is a papyrus [fragments of papyrus]. It's the so called "Turin Royal Canon". In Italian we know it also as the "Papiro dei Re" ["Papyrus of the Kings"]. This document is well more interesting, since it seems to be complete [no selection: at first sight the purpose of this list was to remind all the Monarchs ... as for I know it doesn't reach the Amarna Period, or we miss those fragments, so we cannot know ...].

We know when they wrote it: it's written on a reused tax register dated to the reign of Ramses II [so from that reign on].

Anyway, also this list presents problems: some inaccuracies and absence of independent sources to confirm its content about this or that Monarch.

But we've got a complete list ... [fragmentary, unfortunately ...]. So, what we need to do is to look for archaeological clues to put one of the early Monarchs along the temporal line of the history of Egypt.

What I'm going to do is to check if there have been attempts to use the Turin Canon in this way. And if this is feasible, of course.