What lesson(s) should be learned from the history of the holocaust?

Oct 2011
337
Croatia
#31
Why do people still care about something that happened hundreds of years ago, before anyone alive today was born?

Not letting go of the past and holding on to some misguided notion of blood grudges is what led the people in the Balkans to want to murder each other.
They don't care about something that happened hundreds of years ago, but that doesn't mean it is irrelevant. It is a chain of events, caused by geopolitical / geocultural situation. One event causes another, which causes third one and so on. Nobody may care or even know about the first event, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

There is no notion of "blood grudges" here, there is merely shitty situation all around. As I said, different cultures in close proximity = murder spree.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,042
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#32
They don't care about something that happened hundreds of years ago, but that doesn't mean it is irrelevant. It is a chain of events, caused by geopolitical / geocultural situation. One event causes another, which causes third one and so on. Nobody may care or even know about the first event, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

There is no notion of "blood grudges" here, there is merely shitty situation all around. As I said, different cultures in close proximity = murder spree.
If the cultures are inclined towards murdering each other in the first place, that's true.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,392
Republika Srpska
#33
So what if Kosova wants to rejoin Albania? How does that hurt you?
Why does Crimea joining Russia hurt Ukraine? Why doesn't Georgia recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Why doesn't Somalia recognize Somaliland? Or Spain Catalonia?

P.S. In order for Kosovo to REjoin Albania, it would actually have to be a part of Albania before. It was part of Albania during the Axis occupation of Yugoslavia.
 
Oct 2011
337
Croatia
#34
If the cultures are inclined towards murdering each other in the first place, that's true.
It usually is. See Northern Ireland, Spain (Catalonia) etc. Take a look at the map below; all countries that are in danger of terrorist attacks have significant minorities / unresolved independence/territorial claims etc. - basically things that can be listed under "multiculturalism".

 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,042
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#35
Why does Crimea joining Russia hurt Ukraine? Why doesn't Georgia recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Why doesn't Somalia recognize Somaliland? Or Spain Catalonia?

P.S. In order for Kosovo to REjoin Albania, it would actually have to be a part of Albania before. It was part of Albania during the Axis occupation of Yugoslavia.
Russia's claims to Crimea are probably, on balance, valid. It wasn't what they did, it was how they did it.

As for Georgia, I have no idea. I don't know what the problem there is.

Somalia may not recognise Somalialand, but the state they're in, it makes no difference. As for Catalonia, Spain should definitely iffer them a referendum, just like the UK gave Scotland. If people democratically want to leave, let them. Something that the Balkans seemed to require a bloody war to learn.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,392
Republika Srpska
#36
Russia's claims to Crimea are probably, on balance, valid. It wasn't what they did, it was how they did it.
I somehow doubt Ukraine would have recognized Crimea's decision to join Russia even if everything had been done "properly". Countries just don't like to lose parts of their territories because such as event has the potential to destabilize the entire country and embolden other separatist movements.

Plus it's not like Kosovo's path to 2008 was clean. It wasn't just evil Serbs killing unarmed innocent Albanians. A ton of Serbs lost their lives there during and after the war. So, in Kosovo's case, we can also say that it was HOW they did it, even though Serbia wouldn't have recognized it either way.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,042
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#37
I somehow doubt Ukraine would have recognized Crimea's decision to join Russia even if everything had been done "properly". Countries just don't like to lose parts of their territories because such as event has the potential to destabilize the entire country and embolden other separatist movements.

Plus it's not like Kosovo's path to 2008 was clean. It wasn't just evil Serbs killing unarmed innocent Albanians. A ton of Serbs lost their lives there during and after the war. So, in Kosovo's case, we can also say that it was HOW they did it, even though Serbia wouldn't have recognized it either way.
I'm sure it wasn't just Serbs. All ethnic groups seemed culpable.
 
Jul 2019
4
Netherlands
#38
I don't think you can explain hatred/bigotry/anti-semitism logically. You certainly can't blame the 'social darwinists' ideas. Anti-semitism has been around for as long as we can remember. Humans are essentially evil- society keeps the lid on (usually).. if you believe Hobbes rather than Rousseau.
But that takes away the basis for remembering the holocaust, as something of special significance.

I question what racism would be left if people regarded content of character as a subjective issue. One could then still make racist theory along the lines of heritable different ways of deciding. But then people would still make subjective judgement in what spirit a decision is made, and that choosing of the subjective judgement would engage conscience.
 
Likes: royal744
Jul 2019
4
Netherlands
#39
I would argue that the Yugoslav Wars were at least partially caused by Communist censorship that stopped any expression of healthy nationalism. So, in that case, more free speech might have made a difference.
One of the high level Bosnian Serb leaders was a social darwinist. Biology professor Plavsic. She conjectured the Bosnian muslim population was formed from genetically degenerate Serb outcasts. And she had other social darwinist ideas. She was convicted for warcrimes, but then she said she was sorry, and got a light sentence. Then after she served her time she said she lied about being sorry. Piece of work. Also Karadzic was a professional psychiatrist.

So it seems there was a high level of science involved with the Bosnian Serbs, and it could be true that the ethnic cleansing was based on social darwinist ideology in which content of character is regarded as a factual issue. Teaching that content of character is a subjective issue maybe could have prevented the ethnic cleansing.
 
Nov 2014
1,645
Birmingham, UK
#40
It usually is. See Northern Ireland, Spain (Catalonia) etc. Take a look at the map below; all countries that are in danger of terrorist attacks have significant minorities / unresolved independence/territorial claims etc. - basically things that can be listed under "multiculturalism".
i can see why you might characterise the UK/France's terrorist problems as being due to 'multiculturalism'- at least as far as the modern usage of the word is concerned- but I am less convinced that, say, Basque or Kurdish separatism has anything to do with multiculturalism, at all.
 

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