What was the attitude towards homosexuality in india and china historically?

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,117
New Delhi, India
#61
Don't agree with this analogy. Raja Harishchandra was in the employ of a so called Sudra when he fell into hard times.
Not a shudra, but a chandala, the fifth caste, composed of people who were ex-communicated from the society because of serious misdemanors. Chandala is the lowest in caste heirarchy.
 
Likes: Kadi
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#62
Not a shudra, but a chandala, the fifth caste, composed of people who were ex-communicated from the society because of serious misdemanors. Chandala is the lowest in caste heirarchy.
Well, the situation of the Chandala in Indian society seems exactly analogous to the Burakumin in Japanese society.

But I'm not so sure about the serious misdemeanor bit as in the case of the Burakumin it was just related to their dealings with dead bodies, butcheries and carcasses etc.

So, it seems to me that even the Chandala were very similar to the Burakumin in that they were dealing with corpses. Thus, the implied impurity. It has nothing to do with any sort of misdemeanor
 
Oct 2015
902
India
#63
Well, the situation of the Chandala in Indian society seems exactly analogous to the Burakumin in Japanese society.

But I'm not so sure about the serious misdemeanor bit as in the case of the Burakumin it was just related to their dealings with dead bodies, butcheries and carcasses etc.

So, it seems to me that even the Chandala were very similar to the Burakumin in that they were dealing with corpses. Thus, the implied impurity. It has nothing to do with any sort of misdemeanor
Japan is a developed country. It will be interesting to see how they have handled caste system (Burakumin). Kadi, can you comment more.

Aupmanyev: I tend to feel that some occupations or groups constituted Chandalas in ancient days. To this were added people out-casted as a punishment and downgraded. Somehow I am not persuaded that this caste consisted exclusively of higher castes which were down-graded due to offences.
 
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#64
Japan is a developed country. It will be interesting to see how they have handled caste system (Burakumin). Kadi, can you comment more.
Well, during the 19th century Japan started on a path to modernization. They abolished the feudal system and in 1876 the Samurai, the traditional Kshatriyas of Japan, were banned from carrying swords.

Of course, it was a slow process and the Burakumin still had to fight; they had their own anti discrimination movement even till 20th century (1920s), showing people were still hesitant to embrace them in open society.

Now, as of today even famous brands such as Uniqlo are owned by people from this background
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,117
New Delhi, India
#65
Aupmanyev: I tend to feel that some occupations or groups constituted Chandalas in ancient days. To this were added people out-casted as a punishment and downgraded. Somehow I am not persuaded that this caste consisted exclusively of higher castes which were down-graded due to offences.
Any of the cour divisions of the society could be down grades as chandala based on his crime, it had to be one for which there was no 'prayaschitta' (restitution), for example, being traitor to his country/kingdom, sex crimes. It did not matter if the person was of higher case or lower caste. They were not allowed to come in the city and had to engage in occupations that no one else would engage in, for example, skinning cows, help with funerals, etc.
 
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#66
Any of the cour divisions of the society could be down grades as chandala based on his crime, it had to be one for which there was no 'prayaschitta' (restitution), for example, being traitor to his country/kingdom, sex crimes. It did not matter if the person was of higher case or lower caste. They were not allowed to come in the city and had to engage in occupations that no one else would engage in, for example, skinning cows, help with funerals, etc.
It doesn't work as who was doing this kind of jobs before anyone was banished from society
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,117
New Delhi, India
#67
I think chandalas have always been there in Indian society even before Aryans came. Aryans did not have this fifth division of society. It seems to be an indigenous thing.
 
Likes: Kadi
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#68
I think chandalas have always been there in Indian society even before Aryans came. Aryans did not have this fifth division of society. It seems to be an indigenous thing.
Good analysis, Aupm!

Only thing I don't agree with in what you have written here is 'before they came' bit.

As always, I'll put it as one of the traditional populations of the subcontinent, the Arya, did not have much of social discrimination. They certainly did not have any sort of mechanism of banishing society members to 'Chandala' status
 
Oct 2015
902
India
#70
Good analysis, Aupm!

Only thing I don't agree with in what you have written here is 'before they came' bit.

As always, I'll put it as one of the traditional populations of the subcontinent, the Arya, did not have much of social discrimination. They certainly did not have any sort of mechanism of banishing society members to 'Chandala' status
In Faxian's account of the city in Madhya Desh, the fifth class of people (Panchamas) lived outside the city. When they entered the city and moved on streets inside they were required to make some sort of noise so that others could identify them and maintain a distance. Thus a physical means was available to separate the fifth class of people at least in c. 400 CE.

I think Manu Smriti describes a few situations when a person is downgraded to the fifth class.

Thus both statements are likely to be correct. There was a group engaged in menial occupations before the Aryans and after Indo-Aryans came there were systems of demoting people's social status.