What's going on in Venezuela?

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,408
Athens, Greece
The UN is a joke. The international community is a joke. In a few more years, they'll get to make believe they'll constrain China from doing what it wants, those that aren't bought off. In the mean time it has to complain about what the US does. No surprise there. Nobody is exactly jumping in line to tell Borneo what to do, nobody cares. But with the US, suddenly its everyone in the world's business and everyone thinks their opinion is valid.

Let's say Trump sends in the XVIII Airborne Corps and has them exterminate the socialists. What is the UN going to do? Nothing. Not even the Security Council can do anything, the US would veto anything proposed. Its a hollow organization with no real power besides that given to it by the assembled security council permanent and non-permanent members, who ALL have to agree with one another to get anything done (the biggest joke there is).
Unfortunately, you are not wrong about the UN. Let's just say that it does not fulfil its role as it should have. In a way, it is similar to the problems the EU faces, in both cases powerful nation-states prefer (understandably) to hold onto their power and not let it slip from their grasp into that of an international assembly. Not that the international community does not matter, however. No great power, not even the US can exist in a vacuum. It needs allies and partners, trade and economic, political and military ones. Imagine if Europe was an antagonist to the US, similar to Russia. Imagine if the US had to face sanctions, similar to those imposed on Russia. It wouldn't mean the end of the world, of course, but it would make things much harder. Imagine if the West didn't flock behind the US as its leader, but was itself divided. Anyway, my point is that the great powers, and the US as the current greatest, can have their way of course, but not without caring about the opinion of the international community and about their foreign relations. It is not solely the opinion of American citizens that matters to the US government, as you wrote, while the rest of the world is simply irrelevant.

Now, beyond pragmatism and into a discussion about principles, the question is should things really be this way? Should we endorse "might makes right" and drop all pretenses and efforts to globally behave according to international rules binding to all, or move towards the opposite direction, strengthening the sense and power of an international community and a shared future? I know that idealism is easy for citizens of small and weak countries (not much to lose anyway), while it is much harder for citizens on the side of might, but let's just discuss principles here. After all, it is rather chance that determines in which nation we were born into, humans are humans everywhere, regardless.

Anyway, before this thread gets locked (as I see it heading there fast), I'd be interested in reading your reply. You are an intelligent person and, from what I've seen, one that doesn't lack empathy either. If you were a citizen of a weak nation and not an American, how would you feel and react to the strong nation reality that you described above? How would you feel upon reading your own words:
Venezuela? LOL, conquering them is basically a training exercise. The only thing preventing it is worrying about polls and public opinion and future elections.

Scary, huh? That the only thing stopping most of the world from being conquered is American voting habits.

But in the time being the weak will still do what the US says, or face consequences. And when the US is no longer in charge, someone else will replace them, and the weak will do what the next country in charge tells them to. Because that is what the weak do, they obey the strong or face the consequences.

So, I ask you. Are you seriously bragging that your current bully is going to get replaced some day, but other than that nothing changes? :think:
My questioning is not argumentative, I'm genuinely curious and interested in hearing your thoughts.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
32,130
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Are you an idiot ?

How arrogant and ignorant are you ?
Did you not see my post earlier about this thread being in the Chamber?

I'm going to give you a little leeway, and give you a warning this time. There won't be a next time - one more comment like this here and you'll earn yourself a month off.

That applies to everyone participating in this thread. There will be no more warnings.
 
Sep 2016
804
Georgia
You are an intelligent person and, from what I've seen, one that doesn't lack empathy either. If you were a citizen of a weak nation and not an American, how would you feel and react to the strong nation reality that you described above?
What gives you an impression that he doesn't lack empathy ? You must be terrible at reading people.
 
Oct 2015
4,971
Matosinhos Portugal
Some (few) were supporters of Chávez, others just tolerated/accepted him, as many in the West did. The problem seems that Maduro is much more incompetent, and furthermore has to deal with a crescent corruption (that begun in Chávez’ days), oil prices bellow from the ones that they were used to, and the inherent consequences of the economic sanctions, that affect much more the middle and low classes than the higher ones.

But there is a fear of a US intervention and the consequences that a muscled intervention can make, and the resistance that some supporters of the regime can make to such invasion (the paramilitary known as “Colectivo”), since it can begin a urban kind of warfare, in situations that at some points would be difficult to make the destination from a urban kind of warfare to a war to gangs and over-generalized criminality. No one has doubts that the US military can overthrow Maduro suddenly. The issue is the price of that invasion (in number of dead and material damage) and the post invasion period. Probably a military intervention from Latin-American countries would be a best option than one from the USA (even if the USA gives logistic support that often the other countries lack) – but I really don’t know. The best option would be to see Maduro’s resign.



Here, I absolutely agree with you, I just didn’t contextulized the “(lol)” part. Maybe it is a generation issue.



Agreed. That is common sense and can be applied to all situations in history. And in life.



For some I know something, for all I would like to know more. As in all. I would turn back the question, what about you “Do you really know them” all?”



We know that today Google is a good and overused tool. But there are some things that are common basic or ultra-basic knowledge, some others that I studied, and don’t need to be googled. As you, and I think most of us, I often google to confirm a date or a value, to make a translation, to check a source. But I don’t need to google to enumerate some wars in which the USA were involved in the last century.



Sometimes the way you write makes me think if you really were in the military as you stated somewhere, or if you are a teenager dreaming with the military. For your knowledge of military issues that you already demonstrated in several threads, I assume that the first is true.



I made a critic on you “hawk” attitude in a post, and commented that if that kind of attitude is taken by the USA could embarrass some allies, and expecting that you could understand the reaction of other people to that kind of attitude, I didn’t wrote a thesis about this. I also didn’t thought that I needed so many posts to explain my perspective.



Please… are we going to this path now, discussing the borders of the Middle East, and how often Afghanistan is included or excluded from the geographical definition?

Geographical concepts aren’t universal. Afghanistan is often included in the Middle East, probably more by non-English speaking countries that in English speaking ones. I could put here numerous links that consider Afghanistan in the Middle East but that would provoke only a reaction that you would put here numerous links that consider Afghanistan out of the Middle East.

For now I will just put here two links, both in English, which I think describe well the issue, so we can move on from this kind of peanuts argument:

“In addition, geographic factors often require statesmen and others to take account of Afghanistan and Pakistan in connection with the affairs of the Middle East.”

Middle East | Countries & Facts

and our omnipresent Wikipedia with the wide concept of Middle East:

Greater Middle East - Wikipedia

So, you say that it isn’t, ok, it isn’t for the current discussion sake and let us move to real arguments.



Yes, LatinoEuropa, there are people that know that and… there are people that… learned in a different way.
................
Yes I understand you, for some the world is round, for others it is square.

Sim eu te compreendo, para uns o mundo é redondo, para outros é quadrado,os que sabem são burros ,os que não sabem são inteligentes,percebes.
 
Oct 2015
4,971
Matosinhos Portugal
Let the Venezuelans settle their problems themselves.

I repeat these words from amigo.M.S.Islam and I agree.


One question, you would like your country to be invaded by another?


See actual examples from today, from countries that were attacked.Iraq Libya etc.etc.
Today these countries are worse off.


Everyone should strive for peace.
The world is two days one has passed.

__________________________________


If Venezuela does not accept international aid, it is because it does not need alms, because it has money to buy the food and the medicines, only that the imperalismo does not want because of its interests.



Só é cêgo quem não quer ver. »»» It is only the one who does not want to see.
 
Jan 2010
4,357
Atlanta, Georgia USA
3, 2, 1 until this thread turns into an unproductive conversation about communism.

The problems in Venezuela were caused by populism, not communism, and in the long run the economic instability that led to populism was caused by a society that was too stratified between the elite/poor, and an over-reliance on too few economic sectors.
Whatever you call it, Chaves nationalized (that is, had the government take over, own and operate) most of the important sectors of industry (including the oil company) and finance, and much of the food and service sectors. And then ran them into the ground. With regard to the oil company, Pdvsa, Chaves looted it to give out money to poor people to support him. That worked and stimulated the economy until oil prices collapsed. Lucky for Chaves, he died before things started falling apart. When oil stopped providing the money to hand out, the government continued to print currency to hand out to the people and, as usually happens, inflation went sky high. In January 2019, it was well over 2 million percent.

Maduro, who appears to care about nothing except remaining in power with the help of Cuban “advisors” called and won an election in which he barred most opposition candidates. When Maduro’s term in office expired in January, The National Assembly declared the election invalid under the Veneuzuelan Constitution and Juan Guiado’, The head of the Assembly, became acting president. I should add that the Constitution was put into place under and supported by Chaves.

Maduro has refused to leave and apparently wants the people of Venezuela to starve rather than be fed by foreign aid, is supported by parts of the army and by Cuban “advisors.” !Que Dios benediga y ayuda la gente de Venezuela!
 
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