When could the Jews build a larger state than Israel?

VHS

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Dec 2015
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The early modern period sounded like a golden opportunity to establish a larger state;
much of the fertile lands remained unoccupied and undeveloped.

In real historical setting, Jews only reestablished their state after World War II.
Could the Jews seize the golden opportunity of early modern period
and establish a larger state?

Khazaria is considered the largest Jewish state ever,
and the Kingdom of Simien was larger than the Omride Kingdom of Israel
or any alleged historical Jewish states in the Middle East.

Why did the Jews insist on Palestine?

(Note: Such format is for the ease of reading; it is not that poetic).
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,469
The early modern period sounded like a golden opportunity to establish a larger state;
much of the fertile lands remained unoccupied and undeveloped.

In real historical setting, Jews only reestablished their state after World War II.
Could the Jews seize the golden opportunity of early modern period
and establish a larger state?

Khazaria is considered the largest Jewish state ever,
and the Kingdom of Simien was larger than the Omride Kingdom of Israel
or any alleged historical Jewish states in the Middle East.

Why did the Jews insist on Palestine?

(Note: Such format is for the ease of reading; it is not that poetic).
Short answer they were not particularly and the whole is just confluence of factors,

consider 4 different groups of people.

(1) Zionists Leadership

The Zionsits ledership (pre ww1) were mostly pragmatic and while not wedded to a new Jewish state in the middle east basically went with it because the other groups were easier to motivate on this basis. It was easier to find immigrants, money and governments willing to let it happen. So sometime before ww1 most of the Zionist leadership had come around to a Jewish state in the middle east as it seemed the easiest vehicle to mobilize resources for.

(2) Jewish Emigrants

The Vast majority of Jewish immigrants cared little for a Jewish state and just left Europe for a better life. Overwhelmingly chose the Americas when they had a reasonably free choice. The Late 1920s more Jews were leaving Palestine than Arriving. But with the depression came the closing of doors to immigrants and Palestine despite various pressures was a remaining semi door. Idealism about the link to historic Israel was not particularly strong driving force but it they wanted out of Europe particularly eastern Europe and it was somewhere they could go,


(3) Financial backers.
Both very rich individuals and a mass small donors from Jewish communities were willing to dip into their pockets for Jewish stetlement (state or not) in Palestine. This funding was not available anywhere near as readily as elsewhere.

(4) Various Governments.

It was that the British government was willingly to issue the Balfour declaration and the creation of a Jewish Agency that really fixed the focus on a middle eastern state. Givernments are just not that keen of the creation of a shadow state within there borders. british support may heve heavily hedged and somewhat tranistory, but comared to what was offer elsewhere it was a semi open door however problematic to a bunch of closed doors.
 
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Jul 2019
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Alleged Jewish states in the Middle East? What's that supposed to mean?

The Jews couldn't create a state before the modern period because they had no political clout or effective international communication. And the reason why, when Jewish nationalism did become a thing, the Jews chose Palestine should be quite obvious - Judea (or Yehuda or for that matter, Yisrael) always was considered by the Jews to be their ancestral homeland. For millenia, Jews have prayed thrice-daily that God return them to Zion and Jerusalem.

Re: Khazaria - it's not clear just how much of the population embraced Judaism. If I recall correctly most modern scholarship maintains that only a small group of elites converted to Judaism, and the Judaism they practiced was rather syncretic with their old pagan beliefs.
 

VHS

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Dec 2015
4,596
Florania
Alleged Jewish states in the Middle East? What's that supposed to mean?

The Jews couldn't create a state before the modern period because they had no political clout or effective international communication. And the reason why, when Jewish nationalism did become a thing, the Jews chose Palestine should be quite obvious - Judea (or Yehuda or for that matter, Yisrael) always was considered by the Jews to be their ancestral homeland. For millenia, Jews have prayed thrice-daily that God return them to Zion and Jerusalem.

Re: Khazaria - it's not clear just how much of the population embraced Judaism. If I recall correctly most modern scholarship maintains that only a small group of elites converted to Judaism, and the Judaism they practiced was rather syncretic with their old pagan beliefs.
I don't know if jesusneverexisted.com is a particularly reliable source; if it is reliable, the Jewish kingdoms in the Middle East were likely smallish tribal kingdoms that left very little archaeological signs, if any.
Kingdom of Simien was in current Ethiopia.
 
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I don't know if jesusneverexisted.com is a particularly reliable source; if it is reliable, the Jewish kingdoms in the Middle East were likely smallish tribal kingdoms that left very little archaeological signs, if any.
Kingdom of Simien was in current Ethiopia.
I'm pretty sure that site is not accurate. The Kingdoms of Judah and Israel are amply documented in numerous ancient inscriptions, whether Babylonian, Hebrew, or Moabite. And the Second Commonwealth (c. 500 BCE - 70 CE) is extensively discussed by both Greeks and Romans. Like, really extensively. The Roman campaigns against Judea were some of their hardest fought.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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Short answer they were not particularly and the whole is just confluence of factors,

consider 4 different groups of people.

(1) Zionists Leadership

The Zionsits ledership (pre ww1) were mostly pragmatic and while not wedded to a new Jewish state in the middle east basically went with it because the other groups were easier to motivate on this basis. It was easier to find immigrants, money and governments willing to let it happen. So sometime before ww1 most of the Zionist leadership had come around to a Jewish state in the middle east as it seemed the easiest vehicle to mobilize resources for.
There's another factor to consider here. Specifically--and this is indeed very Machiavellian--creating a Jewish state in Palestine would ensure that most of the Jews living in the Muslim would would immigrate there due to the fact that the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine is very likely to ignite a lot of anti-Semitism throughout the Muslim world. If a Jewish state was created elsewhere, then Mizrahi Jews might be less inclined to move there--though it's possible that some of them might nevertheless eventually decide to move there for economic reasons. An Israel with a greater Ashkenazi Jewish component is likely to be wealthier due to Ashkenazi Jews historically being (on average) more accomplished (in other words, smarter) than Mizrahi Jews were. This difference is apparently visible in Israel even nowadays--with Ashkenazi Jews in Israel, on average, performing almost a full standard deviation above Mizrahi Jews in Israel:

Intelligence differences between European and oriental Jews in Israel. - PubMed - NCBI

The Nazis certainly did not do the Zionists any favors when they murdered most of Europe's Ashkenazi Jews. :( It's an extremely massive loss that severely hurt Israel and continues to do so even today. :(

(2) Jewish Emigrants

The Vast majority of Jewish immigrants cared little for a Jewish state and just left Europe for a better life. Overwhelmingly chose the Americas when they had a reasonably free choice. The Late 1920s more Jews were leaving Palestine than Arriving. But with the depression came the closing of doors to immigrants and Palestine despite various pressures was a remaining semi door. Idealism about the link to historic Israel was not particularly strong driving force but it they wanted out of Europe particularly eastern Europe and it was somewhere they could go,
Yep.

BTW, I've previously flirted with an idea of a victorious Germany creating a Jewish state sometime in Eastern Europe if/after it wins WWI. It's not particularly likely, but it's nevertheless a very interesting thought experiment.

(3) Financial backers.
Both very rich individuals and a mass small donors from Jewish communities were willing to dip into their pockets for Jewish stetlement (state or not) in Palestine. This funding was not available anywhere near as readily as elsewhere.
Why were rich Jews more willing to invest in Palestine?

(4) Various Governments.

It was that the British government was willingly to issue the Balfour declaration and the creation of a Jewish Agency that really fixed the focus on a middle eastern state. Givernments are just not that keen of the creation of a shadow state within there borders. british support may heve heavily hedged and somewhat tranistory, but comared to what was offer elsewhere it was a semi open door however problematic to a bunch of closed doors.
Yep.

Also, why were the Ottomans willing to allow some Jewish immigration into Palestine in the pre-WWI era?
 

VHS

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Dec 2015
4,596
Florania
There's another factor to consider here. Specifically--and this is indeed very Machiavellian--creating a Jewish state in Palestine would ensure that most of the Jews living in the Muslim would would immigrate there due to the fact that the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine is very likely to ignite a lot of anti-Semitism throughout the Muslim world. If a Jewish state was created elsewhere, then Mizrahi Jews might be less inclined to move there--though it's possible that some of them might nevertheless eventually decide to move there for economic reasons. An Israel with a greater Ashkenazi Jewish component is likely to be wealthier due to Ashkenazi Jews historically being (on average) more accomplished (in other words, smarter) than Mizrahi Jews were. This difference is apparently visible in Israel even nowadays--with Ashkenazi Jews in Israel, on average, performing almost a full standard deviation above Mizrahi Jews in Israel:

Intelligence differences between European and oriental Jews in Israel. - PubMed - NCBI

The Nazis certainly did not do the Zionists any favors when they murdered most of Europe's Ashkenazi Jews. :( It's an extremely massive loss that severely hurt Israel and continues to do so even today. :(



Yep.

BTW, I've previously flirted with an idea of a victorious Germany creating a Jewish state sometime in Eastern Europe if/after it wins WWI. It's not particularly likely, but it's nevertheless a very interesting thought experiment.



Why were rich Jews more willing to invest in Palestine?



Yep.

Also, why were the Ottomans willing to allow some Jewish immigration into Palestine in the pre-WWI era?
Yuval Noah Harari admitted that the Jews were a relatively minor people until considerable participation in science and technologies.
List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia
How should we rate the contributions of Jews as a people?
 
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The ottomans welcomed jews because they were business minded non Muslims. Which meant they could be taxed extra. As a bonus it gave the Arabs someone else to gripe about.
 
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Futurist

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Yuval Noah Harari admitted that the Jews were a relatively minor people until considerable participation in science and technologies.
List of Jewish Nobel laureates - Wikipedia
How should we rate the contributions of Jews as a people?
Most Jewish Nobel laureates have been Ashkenazim--and relatively few of them were from Israel. There were only a few Mizrahim and Sephardim among them--and this is especially true for the harder subjects such as science or math.