When could the Jews build a larger state than Israel?

Mar 2015
1,426
Yorkshire
#11
Alleged Jewish states in the Middle East? What's that supposed to mean?

Re: Khazaria - it's not clear just how much of the population embraced Judaism. If I recall correctly most modern scholarship maintains that only a small group of elites converted to Judaism, and the Judaism they practiced was rather syncretic with their old pagan beliefs.

The Provenance and wandering of the Sephardim are well known -less well understood seems to be the Ashkenazi.

Can you provide any insight as to the large formerly population of Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe, Poland\Russia in particular. One theory is that they were the displaced of Khazaria and geographically that would be an easier explanation that the Holy Land.

Are there any doctrinal differences between Sephardim and Ashkenazi?
 
#12
The early modern period sounded like a golden opportunity to establish a larger state;
much of the fertile lands remained unoccupied and undeveloped.

In real historical setting, Jews only reestablished their state after World War II.
Could the Jews seize the golden opportunity of early modern period
and establish a larger state?

Khazaria is considered the largest Jewish state ever,
and the Kingdom of Simien was larger than the Omride Kingdom of Israel
or any alleged historical Jewish states in the Middle East.

Why did the Jews insist on Palestine?

(Note: Such format is for the ease of reading; it is not that poetic).
Well firstly Khazaria is a bit over hyped as a Jewish nation.

It was Turkic, yes the aristocracy decided to become Jewish, but Jewish people have no ancestor claim to this area, plus its part of the Ukraine and Russia so good luck forcing your way in there.

Israel is their roots plus America could bully without reprisals a place like Palestine.
 
Jul 2019
284
New Jersey
#13
The Provenance and wandering of the Sephardim are well known -less well understood seems to be the Ashkenazi.

Can you provide any insight as to the large formerly population of Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe, Poland\Russia in particular. One theory is that they were the displaced of Khazaria and geographically that would be an easier explanation that the Holy Land.

Are there any doctrinal differences between Sephardim and Ashkenazi?
Well, I would disagree that the provenance and wanderings of the Ashkenazim are not well known. Their origins (in a nutshell) are as follows. There was a large Jewish population in Italy during the days of the Roman Empire. Charlemagne invited some leading Jewish families from Lucca to come up to the Holy Roman Empire for the usual economic reasons. From this Jewish community along the Rhineland (Speyer, Colgne, Mayence, Worms) sprang the Jewish communities of France (Troyes, Orleans, Paris) and England (London, Norwich, York). The English and French Jewish communities were destroyed and expelled from their respective countries during the 13th Century, mainly heading south to Provence and Spain, or eastward back to Germany. Over the 14th Century, however, conditions for the German and Austrian Jews deteriorated dramatically, beginning with the Rindfleisch Massacres of 1298 and including the widespread massacres of Jews during the Black Death. Jews fled Germany, either to the east (Poland-Lithuania) or back westward to Spain. That's how the Ashkenazi Jews came to be centered in Eastern Europe - the Western European communities were decimated or destroyed.

Regarding the Khazarian theories, I will simply point out that up until the 14th Century there was a negligible Jewish presence in Poland. Since the Khazars were destroyed by the turn of the millenium, I don't see how the Polish Jews could be their descendants. What's more, most Ashkenazi Jews' DNA Haplotypes indicate a middle-eastern, rather than central Asian, origin.
----------------------------

The differences between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews is purely cultural and liturgical. There are no substantive doctrinal differences.
 
#14
The Provenance and wandering of the Sephardim are well known -less well understood seems to be the Ashkenazi.

Can you provide any insight as to the large formerly population of Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe, Poland\Russia in particular. One theory is that they were the displaced of Khazaria and geographically that would be an easier explanation that the Holy Land.

Are there any doctrinal differences between Sephardim and Ashkenazi?
Yep that's what I thought.

The end date for Khazaria's routing via the Kievan's is just 2 years before the first settlements of Jews turn up in number in Poland.......... which just so happens is 923 miles away, which equates to a 12 day walk, yet no one know's where the Khazarian Jews disappeared to if they didn't end up in Poland, so close in distance compared to any other Jewish settlement.

That seems to me to be a coincidence of extremely timely proportions.

The push back on that is Middle Eastern DNA but I always stated that who are they testing? if some Jewish Khazarians set up in Poland and then their successful settlement enticed Middle Eastern Jews from Spain or Italy to immigrate there then all that means is that their DNA has interbred with the original populace.

You can take stats and manipulate them a number of ways if you really want to and my curiosity is peaked by a strong agenda of Zionists wanting the Ashkenazi theory to go away for political reasons.

As you can imagine, if the Polish Jews are of a Turkic Jewish ancestry that damages their claims to set up in Israel, the Jews who set up in Israel from Europe are the ones who have taken power, it wasn't the local inhabitants of original Jewish Palestinians ......... some of which malign the current situation in Israel and say it was better before, no war.
 
Last edited:
Jul 2019
284
New Jersey
#16
Yep that's what I thought.

The end date for Khazaria's routing via the Kievan's is just 2 years before the first settlements of Jews turn up in number in Poland.......... which just so happens is 923 miles away, which equates to a 12 day walk, yet no one know's where the Khazarian Jews disappeared to if they didn't end up in Poland, so close in distance compared to any other Jewish settlement.

That seems to me to be a coincidence of extremely timely proportions.
Well, it's not true. The Kingdom of the Khazars was destroyed in 969, when the Rus destroyed Atil. Jews don't appear in Poland as residents until over a century later, and those Jews are clearly identified as refugees from Prague. The major influx of Jews to Poland came in the following centuries, when Jews fleeing German persecution found tolerance in Poland.


You can take stats and manipulate them a number of ways if you really want to and my curiosity is peaked by a strong agenda of Zionists wanting the Ashkenazi theory to go away for political reasons.
My curiosity is quelled by a strong agenda of Arabs wanting the Khazarian theory to be true for political reasons.

As you can imagine, if the Polish Jews are of a Turkic Jewish ancestry that damages their claims to set up in Israel, the Jews who set up in Israel from Europe are the ones who have taken power, it wasn't the local inhabitants of original Jewish Palestinians ......... some of which malign the current situation in Israel and say it was better before, no war.
Lol. This last sentence shows how laughably ignorant you are regarding the Sephardic Jews in Israel. First of all, you do know that the majority of Israeli Jews are Sephardic/Mizrahi, right? Secondly, anyone who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that the Sephardic Jews are way farther to the Zionist right (and anti-Palestinian) than the Ashkenazi Jews. Like, practically all of Israel's Sephardic Jews vote for Netanyahu's Likud or the Ultra-Orthodox Shas Party. Sephardic liberals or Palestinian supporters are virtually non-existent in Israel.
 
Last edited:
#18
Well, it's not true. The Kingdom of the Khazars was destroyed in 969, when the Rus destroyed Atil. Jews don't appear in Poland as residents until over a century later, and those Jews are clearly identified as refugees from Prague. The major influx of Jews to Poland came in the following centuries, when Jews fleeing German persecution found tolerance in Poland.


Lol. This last sentence shows how laughably ignorant you are regarding the Sephardic Jews in Israel. First of all, you do know that the majority of Israeli Jews are Sephardic/Mizrahi, right? Secondly, anyone who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that the Sephardic Jews are way farther to the Zionist right (and anti-Palestinian) than the Ashkenazi Jews. Like, practically all of Israel's Sephardic Jews vote for Netanyahu's Likud or the Ultra-Orthodox Shas Party. Sephardic liberals or Palestinian supporters are virtually non-existent in Israel.
It was an interview on television by a local Israeli saying these things, you can lol all you want but I'm saying what I saw by an Israeli ........ you saying I'm ignorant is what's laughable, I essentially quoted what a Jewish person said and you attack me for it just because you don't like what he said.

Also your dates on the Polish Jewish settlements are not accurate, I had this conversation a while back and the dates that were looked at, one of them was literally two years after Atil had fell.

You are not the authority on facts given, as per usual there are a few different dates given.

All of that aside, because your's or anyone else's agenda doesn't interest me quite frankly and I know this subject is a hotbed for it.

What I do find of interest is on a historical level (and I'm assuming you've looked into it hence why I'm asking you? ) is there any European Jews around the Poland area etc that do have any Central Asian DNA? or are you championing that there is zero?
 
Jul 2019
284
New Jersey
#19
It was an interview on television by a local Israeli saying these things, you can lol all you want but I'm saying what I saw by an Israeli ........ you saying I'm ignorant is what's laughable, I essentially quoted what a Jewish person said and you attack me for it just because you don't like what he said.
People lie. Or they're ignorant. I'm a Sephardic Jew who has studied in Israel for two years and is intimately familiar with its politics. What you're saying is just wrong - like I said, anyone who knows anything about Israel can confirm my position.

Also your dates on the Polish Jewish settlements are not accurate, I had this conversation a while back and the dates that were looked at, one of them was literally two years after Atil had fell.

You are not the authority on facts given, as per usual there are a few different dates given.
Okay. You're the one peddling revisionist history, how about you give us some dates?

What I do find of interest is on a historical level (and I'm assuming you've looked into it hence why I'm asking you? ) is there any European Jews around the Poland area etc that do have any Central Asian DNA? or are you championing that there is zero?
There's obviously not zero. Nobody's disputing that conversions have historically happened. Nonetheless, only a very small minority of Ashkenazi Jews (12% according to this paper) have a distinctly European haplotype which may be from the Khazars. In any event, here is another academic paper demonstrating the shared middle eastern heritage of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.
 
Jul 2019
284
New Jersey
#20
Here's an excerpt from the abstract of the second link, stating the general thesis that virtually all Jews share a middle eastern origin, with a minor European admixture in the Ashkenazi gene pool:

"A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities."

And here's an excerpt of the first link,which elaborates on the small European infusion in the Ashkenazi gene pool:

"Previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms reported a small European contribution to the Ashkenazi paternal gene pool (Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993; Hammer et al. 2000). In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews and which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%–60%; Semino et al. 2000). Alternatively, it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendents of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 a.d. (Dunlop 1954)."
 

Similar History Discussions