Where did the Phoenicians come from?

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,426
#52
How old are the most ancient building ruins in Yemen and Bahrein..
The oldest remaining structure in Yemen is the dam I think while I've read Bahrein has foundation remains of some buildings coinciding with Babylonian era and evidence of human habitation with some structures even earlier (lets not call them 'buildings').
 
Jan 2015
3,067
Rupert's Land ;)
#53
Phoenicians are ethnically one of the same as Jewish people. Jewish people are Phoenicians who began to practice monotheism, paradoxically mixed with polytheism between 1000-500 BCE. This is the general picture presented in the very good Israeli National Museum in Jerusalem. .
And what is the basis for this claim?
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#55
According to Herodotus, the Phoenicians were Ionic Greeks, they derive the name from the Delian Palm tree and settled along
the coastlines of Syria.

Herodotus 7.89 - These Phoenicians formerly dwelt, as they themselves say, by the Red Sea; they crossed from there and now inhabit the seacoast of Syria

Evidence
Raid by the Ionians (ia-u-na-a-a) on the Syrian coast is reported to Tiglath-Pileser III (saao/saa19 )

Sargon's Annals for 709 BCE, claiming that tribute was sent to him by 'seven kings of Ya (ya-a'), a district of Yadnana whose distant abodes are situated a seven-days' journey in the sea of the setting sun', is confirmed by a stele set up at Citium in Cyprus 'at the base of a mountain ravine ... of Yadnana (Annals of Sargon of Accad and Naram-Sin )
 
Oct 2018
45
Bangalore,India
#56
Phoenicians were an Afro-Asiatic speaking peoples falling under the Semitic Branch. They from the Levant and spread over into Northern coast of Africa establishing colonies and settlements. Physically and Genetically,they were Caucasian and might have looked like the present Lebanese,Syrians,Georgians and Turkish.
The origin of Afro-Asiatic languages is still an not a deciphered thing due to the number of migrations in the ME. Some say Egypt,some say Anatolia and Caucasus,some say Arabia and some even mention Ethiopia and Iran. So I'd say,location is Lebanon, linguistically Afro-Asiatic and genetically from Anatolia and Caucasus.
 
Mar 2017
803
Colorado
#59
a lineage marker of 90 to 95 percent of all non-Africans who migrated out of Africa and settled in the fertile lands of the Middle East and beyond.
I follow the rest of this, mostly. They have a genetic marker they identify as Phoenician .. and 30% of the tested Jewish people have it.

I don't understand the quoted statement at all. Are they/you talking about the two waves of ancestral homo sapiens that migrated out of Africa? If they evolved in-Africa how could they be non-Africans? Race has gotten to be a sticky point in this area. Usually when something like this jumps at me, I'm misunderstanding. Is there some other migration you're talking about?

ANYWAY, I've skimmed through a couple of threads at Historum on Phoenician topics. The common element is that modern people want to claim direct lineage to ancient people, ... for prestige? I suspect to make some sort of ancestral claims as well.

That "make claims" part is a bit puzzling. Throw a dart at the map of the world: it will land in a place that was controlled by different people in a different time period. Wars change national/political boundaries: that's just the way it works. Are they going to cut out a chunk of France so the Cathars can have their own country? Are they going to cut up Italy into Papal states and medieval kingdoms? At one time Alexander controlled a fair chunk of the world, is there going to be a new Macedonia carved on old lines? The UN gave Israel part of Palestine as a result of WW II. Stuff happens in war: in my mind Israelis ancestral claims are interesting history, but the UN gave them the land, they moved in, .... done.

Did the UN have the right to do that? Probably not. Did France & England have the right to carve up the Middle East? Definitely not. They created "Iraq": how did that work out? You can't undo any of that. War happens.



So, if you self-identify as a Phoenician in the Levant, what good does it do you? You want ancestral lands as they were before Alexander conquered them? ... and what would genetically constitute a Phoenician? ANYONE who carries that single genetic marker?

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A common theme for wannabe Phoenicians is dredging Herodotus and interpreting the text as them coming from "someplace" up the Red Sea (or maybe Suez), going overland, and starting their culture on the Mediterranean coast. As a poster mentioned before, Herodotus is pretty good on Persian history around the 4th millennia, but he also reported hearsay, legend, and myth. Some say "it is said" (so he's acknowledging a sketchy source), others don't have warnings. The further away from his own time period, the more suspect. For goodness sake, he was *IN* Egypt, but didn't actually witness things he wrote about: he probably made it to Giza, but his description of Philae is a mess (as well as his imaginative hippo). It's like his source was a guy who said "my grandfather's uncle visited Philae once".

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I go along with the Egyptian/Greek contrast in engineering ... mostly.

The Greeks were great in designing machinery ... they just weren't keen on building stuff (with a few notable exceptions). Big on theory, less so on implementation (not "scholar" work).
The Egyptians loved that stuff: variations of Archimede's screw still pump water all over Egypt, they were big on temple "magic" provided by unseen machinery, and liked crude automatons. It can be said they were following some Greek plans, but they actually built stuff.
 
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Likes: specul8
Jun 2012
7,033
Malaysia
#60
Phoenicians are ethnically one of the same as Jewish people. Jewish people are Phoenicians who began to practice monotheism, paradoxically mixed with polytheism between 1000-500 BCE. This is the general picture presented in the very good Israeli National Museum in Jerusalem.
Israelis claim all kinds of things. Does not make them all true.

Mostly what I hv read is that Hebrews originated ultimately from Mesopotamia. After all, that is where Abraham came from. He first settled in Canaan. And the Phoenicians were already there. So, the ancient Hebrews, i.e. Abraham's progeny, likely mixed with some of the Phoenicians, to some extent or other. That is all.
 

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