Where has multiculturalism been successful ?

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Aug 2019
157
Netherlands
Doomed ? Turks lived like this for a hundreds of years . And Turkey still stands against all threats fit as a fiddle . it takes a lot more to destroy a nation .

What would people who surrender to Germans in a week know about it ?

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Hey Einstein, i know our own history better than you. But isn't your own nation made up of other cultures and peoples then?

We were one of the most unprepared nations in 1940 but given our small land area (calculating per m2) and equipment, we did better or even the best of euro nations defending our country.
 
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Sep 2019
143
Turkey
Hey Einstein, i know our own history better than you. But isn't your own nation made up of other cultures and peoples then?

We were one of the most unprepared nations in 1940 but given our small land area (calculating per m2) and equipment, we did better or even the best of euro nations defending our country.
Wow Einstein I love that nick . Call me like that anymore .

it was your fault that you did not prepare for the war .

Even a fool would know that war came when the Nazis took control of the Germany .

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Aug 2019
157
Netherlands
Wow Einstein I love that nick . Call me like that anymore .

it was your fault that you did not prepare for the war .

Even a fool would know that war came when the Nazis took control of the Germany .

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That was not the discussion.
 
Sep 2012
942
Prague, Czech Republic
So what ? 2 is enough to tango.... it is indeed multiculturalism 101.... Rwandans may say they are rwandans, but when the genocide happened the killers knew exactly who to kill...
People knew exactly who to kill during the massacres in Indonesia in the 60s as well. While in some cases that meant ethnic Chinese, they made up a tiny minority of the slain. Most of the victims were 'communists' or 'atheists'. Is that multiculturalism? Because I think the psychology behind the mass slaughter of the 'other' was very similar in the Indonesian and Rwandan cases.
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,824
Europix
No, that is a minimalist definition that is firstly not how the term is understood nowadays, and secondly if applying that minimalist definition any group of 2 or more people would be multicultural (yes even the Sentinel islanders in your above example..... I wonder why you declare them monocultural when no one knows much about them due to their special status)... Such a definition would be by nature useless since and every group would be multicultural...
So the problem is not "multiculturalism" but a group's "stance on multiculturalism" according to you ?

You do realize that with this logic you can justify anything: such as "the problem is not communism" but "a group's stance on communism" , the problem is not racism" but a "group's stance on racism", "the problem is not slavery" but a group's stance on slavery etc....

Rather you should be asking what elicits such extreme reactions and how they can be avoided...
In case of doubts, it's always better to go back to the basics:

Multicultural:
" including people who have many different customs and beliefs " (Cambridge dictionary)
"of, relating to, reflecting, or adapted to diverse cultures " (Mirriam-Webster dictionary)
"means consisting of or relating to people of many different nationalities and cultures." (Collins dictionary)



which means that in:
It is the contrary... A society cannot be considered -in my view- multicultural if it discriminates (or worse) against certain cultures/ minorities
You are wrong as Your view goes against the meaning of the word.

Multiculturalism:
"a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant." (Collins dictionary)
"cultural pluralism or diversity (as within a society, an organization, or an educational institution) : a multicultural social state or a doctrine or policy that promotes or advocates such a state" (Mirriam-Webster)
"the belief that different cultures within a society should all be given importance " (Cambridge dictionary)


In other words, it's one of the possible stances that an individual/group/society/state has/can have towards multiculturality. There's also nationalism, nazism, a multitude of stances promoting, accepting, tolerating, refusing, hating multiculturality.

A stance is based on acquired conviction, a policy is reflecting that conviction. A stance is subjective and is also a choice.

So
So the problem is not "multiculturalism" but a group's "stance on multiculturalism" according to you ?
Yes. Group's or groups' stance.

Both multiculturalism and anti-multiculturality stances although opposed, are referring to multiculturality! You are confounding multiculturality as an objective existing fact with a conviction/belief/stance, which is subjective, induced or chosen. You are equivalencing also a premise with a cause.

And the mentioned Rwanda example remains the best one in how and why You are wrong: Rwanda during the genocide was a multicultural society, as Rwanda after the genocide was a multicultural society. Rwanda's multiculturality did not change, was the same in both periods. If You leave aside Your preconceived ideas, You will realise the total lack of logic in saying that it is not the stance on multiculturality but multiculturality itself.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,561
SoCal
That's a valid point, but I don't think Latin American culture is all that incompatible with American culture to begin with. They'll integrate. Sure, they'll change American culture as well, but that's normal. It's nothing like the North African / Middle Eastern influx to Europe.
Yeah, Latin Americans are Christians and many of them have a sizable amount of European/white ancestry. Latinos in the US do perform worse on the PISA exam than US whites and Asians do, but they also perform at a level comparable to that of Slovakia and Slovakia certainly isn't a dump by any means:




Hispanics and Latinos also vote more Democratic than white Americans do, but if one leans to the left, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

The issue with Muslim immigrants (especially when it comes to working-class Muslim immigrants as opposed to the educated, cosmopolitan, and relatively liberal Muslim elite) is their high amount of crime (at least in Western Europe) as well as the problems that come with some of them being radicalized--terrorist attacks, killing people for drawing Muhammad cartoons and/or speaking badly about Islam, et cetera. Thus, I would certainly want to be extremely selective when it comes to admitting Muslim immigrants.
 

Futurist

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May 2014
23,561
SoCal
What are cases of success ?... What are cases of failure ? What is the rough ratio of success to failure


Here is a case of failure (Malmo , Sweden)


Multiple cases of failure are related to the breakdown of empires (for example Austria Hungary) or even countries (Yugoslavia)

The difficulty lies in defining "multiculturalism"

Mulitculturalism is defined as the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society.

The key point here is "distinct" , i.e. not integrated with the mainstream culture of the country..... As always it is difficult to define such concepts precisely... For example having a different diet is "not it", whilst not speaking the country's official language "is it"..... Importing different sets of customs that do not align with the country's traditions and core values would be "it" as well
Switzerland and Canada appear to be relatively successful with their multiculturalism, no? For that matter, the Austrian half of Austria-Hungary was fairly successful for a couple of centuries before Austria-Hungary collapsed and broke up. Also, a surviving USSR could have had some success with multi-culturalism, no?

The odds of multiculturalism being successful might depend on exactly what kind of multiculturalism one is actually aiming for. After all, there is a huge world of difference between, say, having Third World elites move to your countries and having Third World underclasses move to your countries. Even among different Third World countries, there could be significant differences. For instance, I suspect that a working-class Hispanic/Latin American immigrant is going to be much more tolerant of things such as LGBT rights, women's rights, and free speech than a working-class Muslim immigrant is going to be. Latin America generally does appear to be more pro-women's rights and especially pro-LGBT rights than the Muslim world is and also Latin Americans aren't actually going to kill you for drawing Jesus cartoons like some Muslims would in regards to drawing Muhammad cartoons. :(
 

Futurist

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May 2014
23,561
SoCal
And the mentioned Rwanda example remains the best one in how and why You are wrong: Rwanda during the genocide was a multicultural society, as Rwanda after the genocide was a multicultural society. Rwanda's multiculturality did not change, was the same in both periods. If You leave aside Your preconceived ideas, You will realise the total lack of logic in saying that it is not the stance on multiculturality but multiculturality itself.
AFAIK, Rwanda after the genocide was led by Tutsis (with some window-dressing moderate Hutus, of course) while Rwanda before the genocide was led by radical Hutus. So, there was certainly a change in Rwanda before and after its genocide about who exactly was in charge of Rwanda--even though Rwanda remained multicultural due to the influx of Tutsis from other African countries into Rwanda after its genocide.
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,824
Europix
Thus, I would certainly want to be extremely selective when it comes to admitting
Although related, that isn't "multiculturalism" but immigration policy. Still two different things.

There are multicultural countries, countries with long traditions of "multiculturalism" having meanwhile strict, if not very strict immigration policies.
 
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