Where has multiculturalism been successful ?

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Closed
Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
Sorry, but this sounds a lot like pseudo science.... Basically when any 2 people have kids, it is a lottery..... Kids could be "better" or "worse" than their parents in any number of traits.....

For example, one indicator that kids do not necessarily get better is the declining IQ issue



People are getting dumber. That's not a judgment; it's a global fact. In a host of leading nations, IQ scores have started to decline.


These days, however, Flynn himself concedes that "the IQ gains of the 20th century have faltered." A range of studies using a variety of well-established IQ tests and metrics have found declining scores across Scandinavia, Britain, Germany, France and Australia.
Details vary from study to study and from place to place given the available data. IQ shortfalls in Norway and Denmark appear in longstanding tests of military conscripts, whereas information about France is based on a smaller sample and a different test. But the broad pattern has become clearer: Beginning around the turn of the 21st century, many of the most economically advanced nations began experiencing some kind of decline in IQ.
That article, I will bet dollars to donuts is a BS click bait piece..

I didn’t read the whole thing yet, but have seen MANY things pointing out that for decades they have had to scale up the IQ test every year.

Someone who scored a 100, 25 years ago wouldn’t get an 85 today..

I’m gonna read the article when I have a few and I’m betting it is hyping the results from only a couple years..

Period...

100 years ago no one on planet earth knew Pluto existed... they didn’t know viruses or bacteria existed..

Every kindergartener does today..

All of the vast combined knowledge of humanity is at our fingertips (smart phones) and we can all communicate to share ideas...


Thee is only one biblical prophecy that I find profound..

The Tower of Babel fable.

I find it just insane that someone from that era was smart enough to foresee that if language and distance were not an issue. There is nothing humanity could not accomplish.


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Nov 2019
138
Memphis TN
Honestly, the problem with discussions on multiculturalism (and this thread is a good example) is that it's too often based on a false view.

Multiculturalism isn't good nor bad, isn't successful nor falling. Multiculturalism is.

The discussion should be put on it's real rails: how a state is dealing multiculturalism. Exactly as we (can) discuss how a state is dealing criminality. Or education. Or economy.

The wrong frame that characterizes these kind of discussions is the reason they're endless: A will prove beyond doubt, with irrefutable examples that multiculturalism doesn't work while B will prove the contrary. And both are right, actually. Simply because working out or failing, is related to the state (but society and its components too) approach on multiculturalism, not on multiculturalism itself.

If we look in history, we will find plenty of examples of multicultural statal organisations that worked well for a period and failed afterwards. If we look closely, we will find the reason for what seems a contradiction: the state itself, or the society, or significant parts of the society changed their approach on multiculturalism.

Not different from criminality, after all. Places that were unviable nests of criminality became safe heavens, and vice-versa. But it's not that the human "criminal propensity" that changed. What changed it's how the state/society (re)acted towards criminality.


BOOOYA

I think you hit it on the head..

Multi-culturalism is a neutral word... it does not carry an inherently good or evil meaning. It is too broad of a topic to pretend it always goes one way or the other..


It carry’s the same moral rating as the words epoch or silicone.. they carry no moral implications.

Imho this is an example of conservative and cold war propaganda...

TPTB convinced the American people in the Cold War era, and Fox News types have convinced the yokels that neutral words are not neutral... they are inherently good or evil.

Liberal, conservative, communism, socialism, globalism, multi-culturalism, exc...

None are inherently good or evil .. all are tools to be used how those using them choose to use them..




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robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,223
Lisbon, Portugal
Obviously I can make Singapore as a successful example of a multicultural society, but as always as I mention this country, someone here will make the excuse of the country being "too small" to be a valid example - although that argument is ridiculous and doesn't make any logic whatsoever.
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,124
Lorraine tudesque
Multiculturalism is a bag that can have many, many, many significances. Usually today in the West all those significances are negative and negatively exploited.

Two success in multiculturalism were here already pointed by AlpinLuke: Switzerland, and the EU (at least until Durão Barroso). To a certain point we could add Spain (after 1975 and until recently), Belgium (also until recently), Luxemburg…

Then we have articles like the one that Tomar posted… and information like this one:

https://www.thelocal.se/20190118/malm-sees-lowest-crime-stats-in-17-years-new-figures

And we see that someone is lying. The two tales can’t be truth at the same time.

 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
If it had been applied evenly through out the Jewish territories under Roman control, then you would have a point. However the only areas that suffered the extreme retributions were those that fostered the rebellion in the first place.
That’s a good point. Some people forget that Jewish groups rebelled against the Roman Empire. Both sides fought well though especially the zealots. Under Ceaser Roman Jews thrived.

The Roman empire one of the most sought after empires in history perhaps the most studied empire in history... Was inclusive of Arab and African leaders.

I would say the same types of anti-immigration sentiments of today were seen in the past. It’s a continuation of the human mind and spirit if you will. By the way I would argue immigration is something that is overplayed by anti-immigrant. Because the fact of the matter is that countries of the world have laws with immigration not everybody is Let in.

We have in our world today Saudis, Japanese, Americans and more who do not like immigration. Anti-immigration is not only seen in Europe but from all over the world.

It is equally destructive in my opinion to not have any security in one’s country or to for example prevent all immigration of a certain group based on religion or ethnicity.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,643
Las Vegas, NV USA
Very much the experience in Australia.
The US, Canada and Australia still have an overarching culture to which all are expected to conform beginning with a common language or in Canada, two languages. This is not to restrict the other languages from being used. There are also the ideals of democratic and limited government with explicit rights including religious freedom within the frame of the law. So extra-judicial punishments involving the loss of life, confinement or loss of property or monetary fines for religious reasons are not allowed. My understanding is that in some secular countries religious law for certain minority populations is tolerated to keep the peace
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
6,164
Portugal
let us not argue technicalities, we all understand that the de facto official language of the US is English.... from school teachings to government documentation and everything in betweem...
An official language is not exactly a technicality!

But that “technicality” was not the point, the point of my comment was that the Spanish is a language spoken as native language by a significant minority of the population (a bit more than 58 million persons according to Wikipedia – see bottom), it is the second language of the country, it is growing, has strong historical roots (even previous than the English), and yet apparently is still seen as alien by many English speakers in the USA, as your expression seemed to show, even if there is already government documentation in Spanish, but seems still much "ignored" in the schools as second language (read here basic and high school) and seen as foreign.

Link: Spanish language in the United States - Wikipedia

It is not quite that black and white... the first piece also has facts and stats even if it is written in a different more "personal" style (as in "this is what happened to me")
Precisely my point. We can only sympathize with the storyteller, it is an appeal to the emotion.

This year, there already have been 29 explosions in a city of just 320,000. Sweden as a whole is on pace for about 150—or about three per week (as Quillette has reported previously). These are attacks by criminal gangs that usually target other criminals. But the victims are sometimes innocent bystanders
I think you understood my point, you see, that first link of yours, about Malmo, in the Independent, has a much more objective, journalistic language.

And it says: “However, Swedish news agency TT said five fatal shootings and 29 explosions, including Saturday’s incidents, have taken place in Malmo this year - figures substantially lower than during all of 2018, according to police statistics.”

And we have seen previously that in 2018 was lower than in 2017.

In your second link, in BBC, we can read:

“Who are Sweden's criminal gangs?



intelligence chief Linda H Straaf…

"They have grown up in Sweden and they are from socio-economically weak groups, socio-economically weak areas, and many are perhaps second- or third-generation immigrants," she says.”

And

“If you're anti-immigration it's so easy to angle everything as just 'oh it's the immigrants' fault', but the problem goes way beyond that. Malin Bradshaw, Sodermalm resident, Stockholm”

And the third link of yours, Quillette, states:

“Sweden has experienced a sharp rise in explosions in recent years, predominantly related to conflicts between warring criminal gangs.”

And the fourth, the Spectator: “Bomb attacks are now a normal part of Swedish life”

Something is not right again. The sources are contradictory!

Probably at this point of my posts I am already labelled with something. But my position, my political position, since this is a political issue, is recognize multiculturalism as a reality of the global village that we live that we cannot deny. It exists and we have to manage it.

The problem is not the multiculturalism per se, the problem is that our governments were not ready to deal with this global village. The problem is that the integration programs, when they exist, are failing, and they paradoxically seem to fail mostly to the second and third generation of migrants than to the first. Identity crisis on those people? Maybe.

Then the huge waves of migrants that we have today all over the world also don’t allow the countries that are their targets to adequately, even informally, integrate those individuals, and that lack of integration, seems in many cases lead to rejection of the values of the state. Values and principles that we in the West so much want to preserve (or at least I want), values as democracy, liberty, security, prosperity, religious freedom, the rule of the law, equality of the citizens before the law, etc…

And the EU (as Sweden) is failing here. And this failure is having immediate consequences (the Brexit is just one of them) and will have even more pernicious consequences in the future.

I don’t have problems with migrants that come to Portugal to study or to work, to open MacDonald’s, Pizzerias, Kebabs, or Chinese food restaurants, if they are willing to integrate and to abide the laws of the country. Obviously a huge mob of migrants, without control that cannot be integrated, that don’t find work (or at least a work that allows them to survive with dignity), and that don’t know or don’t recognize the laws of the country and their culture can be quickly transformed in a social time-bomb. We saw that happened in France, in the UK, and maybe in Sweden as you pointed. But there the problem is not the multiculturalism, but the lack of the social values that I mentioned previously.

Not sure here what you tried to point. Unfortunately, Portugal, as many other European countries, had problems with volunteers that were radicalized by the ISIS.

Some went to Syria directly from Portugal, others went through other EU countries (if I recall correctly most lived in UK and France), but the overall number was relatively low (even if one is already too much).

Apparently some of those volunteers escaped recently from their prisons in Syria and their location is unknown.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,401
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Obviously I can make Singapore as a successful example of a multicultural society, but as always as I mention this country, someone here will make the excuse of the country being "too small" to be a valid example - although that argument is ridiculous and doesn't make any logic whatsoever.
Singapore enjoy an overall economical over-culture which allows the real cultures to cohabit. This essay is very interesting : The Myth of Multiculturalism in Singapore

In particular I tend to share this analysis:

Multiculturalism is arguably a form of ‘fictive ethnicity’ (Balibar, 1996 in Hutchinson & Smith, 1996). Fictive ethnicity is the creation of a master narrative by the state that represents different ethnic groups in the nation’s past, present and future, as if they are a natural and continuous community. It is essentially situating ethnic groups into a larger tapestry of history to achieve a historic mission that transcends the interests of individuals
and social conditions. Fictive ethnicity is indispensable to the realisation of a nationhood because without it, the nation would appear precisely only as an idea or an arbitrary abstraction.
 
Oct 2011
518
Croatia
With regards to so-called multiculturalism, in your opinion do you see any positive examples of this throughout history?

how do you define multiculturalism? Do you know that for example the Roman empire was inclusive of Arabs, Africans and Europeans that is diversity right there and I believe that that would fall in line with your definition of multiculturalism, correct?

Put it this way which empires or kingdoms were not diverse? Can you name one of them throughout history? Even the ones that were majority Catholic or Muslim they had different ethnicities. It’s an interesting subject Nonetheless
Difference is that these generally would not be coming into contact with each others. Rome and Constantinople may have been cosmopolitan - and were also hotbeds of crime - but vast majority of populace would have lived their whole life without seeing anyone outside of their immediate surroundings. Celts lived among Celts, Romans among Romans, Greeks among Greeks. Modern multiculturalism has little in common with Roman version of it.
 
Oct 2011
518
Croatia
That article, I will bet dollars to donuts is a BS click bait piece..

I didn’t read the whole thing yet, but have seen MANY things pointing out that for decades they have had to scale up the IQ test every year.

Someone who scored a 100, 25 years ago wouldn’t get an 85 today..

I’m gonna read the article when I have a few and I’m betting it is hyping the results from only a couple years..

Period...

100 years ago no one on planet earth knew Pluto existed... they didn’t know viruses or bacteria existed..

Every kindergartener does today..

All of the vast combined knowledge of humanity is at our fingertips (smart phones) and we can all communicate to share ideas...
You understand that knowledge and intelligence are not the same?

Thee is only one biblical prophecy that I find profound..

The Tower of Babel fable.

I find it just insane that someone from that era was smart enough to foresee that if language and distance were not an issue. There is nothing humanity could not accomplish.


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Yes, humanity will be able to exterminate itself.
 
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