Where has multiculturalism been successful ?

Aug 2018
581
Southern Indiana
Canada has only 2 languages, the second one being French and mostly limited to Quebec... And Quebec has a strong independence (so far unsuccesful) movement

Numerous african countries are in strife.... The worst example of strife having been that of Rwanda and its genocide.... We have a poster from Nigeria who several times made the point that it would make sense for Nigeria to be several countries

What are the different langauges spoken in Brazil ?
.
This thread isn’t about languages
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,614
Europix
You know You're funny?

This
Just because the language is the same, does not mean there are no other differences...
is exactly what I was saying.

It is also what You weren't saying (see for example Your exchange with Sundiata where, in a way or another You dismissed other factors and invariably returned to language).

Nevermind: we both know each other well, and we know where all this is coming from and also where is going to.

So back to the question in the title of Your OP:

In the modern times, the state and the society that had the most successful story remains USA. A state that has at it's very core the the right to diversity, the society based on the existence and protection of multiculturalism.

In the same modern times, the state and society that experienced the biggest failure was Nazi Germany. A state that had at it's very core the denial of diversity, a society based on the promotion and imposition of a monoculture.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,030
In the modern times, the state and the society that had the most successful story remains USA. A state that has at it's very core the the right to diversity, the society based on the existence and protection of multiculturalism.
Indians genocided
Blacks enslaved and then made second class citizens
Mexicans ethnically cleansed
Chinese considered untermensch and denied any rights for a long time

a that is just a short list

Protection of multiculturalism ? really ?
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,614
Europix
Indians genocided
Blacks enslaved and then made second class citizens
Mexicans ethnically cleansed
Chinese considered untermensch and denied any rights for a long time

a that is just a short list

Protection of multiculturalism ? really ?
Yes, really. Again, let me remind You multicultural isn't resumed to ethnicity (I think You've said it recently too, or maybe it's my memory failing me?)


Success or failure isn't given moment, but a process, in time.

So, question 1: how comes "we" take not the evolution of the state/society, but a certain period only?

and question 2: how about You to comment/contest the second example: the monocultural one?

You know, as in where the two started from and where they arrived to?
 

Isleifson

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
4,102
Lorraine tudesque
Malmö is too complex to have any kind of single-factor explanation, certainly including "multiculturalism".

The elephant in the room, if that's still a thing even, is that it is Sweden's "southern gateway" and has a proportionally large immigrant population. But we all knew that since twenty years or more.

But otoh one problem isn't immigrants per se, but that Sweden doggedly (and certainly with some good arguments as well) continues to maintain a distinctly high-wage, high-skill labour market. Entry-level jobs requiring no or little qualifications hardly exist. It's nothing like Germany, which has Europe's largest low-wage sector. This has effects for how and when immigrants can successfully enter into the national labour force, and doing that is a know key to integration.
What no one so far can explain is why the sudden, massive upsurge in violence? Yes, there has been gangs and drug dealing for quite some time there. That's hardly unique among the rougher cities of Europe. Just the recent upsurge in violence is.

Sure, Sweden there are plenty of privately owned weapons in Sweden, it's one of the better armed countries in Europe. But again, it's not unique. And besides, it IS Malmö that sticks out. The two other major cities, Göteborg and Stockholm, have declining violent crime rates. (And lots of immigrants too, for all that matters. Göteborg has been the Swedish Violent Crime Capital for some generations too, only to suddenly be overtaken by Malmö). There is an aspect to this that there is substantial illegal imports of firearms and explosives, military grade, from the Balkans (former Yugoslavia). That's where a lot of it comes from.

What does get commented on by police, sociologists et al. trying to get their heads around the situation, is that there is an apparent vicious cycle that started a while ago, has escalated, the young men involved in this kind of alternative criminal life-style in the underprivileged neighbourhoods are caught up in it, and – interestingly – they are not just being killed, but are sounding the alarm themselves over the situation, which has developed into something they did not expect, did not want, but have no way of getting out of.

What police describes is a situation where "gangs" is a bit generous, since that implies a certain formality and hierarchy. These are more loose sets of groups of friends and individuals, young men on the margins of society, who are engaged in fairly petty criminal activity, but has escalated violence to a level where deadly forces is the first recourse, weapons and explosives abound, idiotic tiny slights (sometimes imagined, someone looked at someone else's girlfriend, maybe, the wrong way) are met with massive disproportionate and deadly violence. Deadly feuds are entertained where the parties no longer recall the reasons, except the body of the latest mate has to be avenged by whacking one of the other group. And the people involved in this realize that it is super dangerous, deadly, shitty survival prospects for everyone, and yet they are unable to end the cycle. It is also then being fed by the fact that since propensity for deadly violence has become a way of climbing a prestige ladder. Even younger newcomers can quickly establish themselves by being even more outrageously prepared to just kill some dude they don't even know because reasons y'know... And so they have escalated the vicious cycle even further.

That does of course imply a massive policing problem. And that would be the case. Swedish police has been massively re-organized while this trend was getting started, and it has completely failed to be either present enough to avert anything, or good enough at catching the killers to make it stop. The gang-warfare now can continue because the police is unable to get inside the circle of information of who is killing whom why, and as a consequence the spiral of violence within these marginalised groups of petty crims continue. If you kill the "right" kind of person in certain neighbourhoods in Malmö, you will almost certainly get away with it.

However, for perspective, while this is all bad, and historically new to Sweden, it is not exactly historically new. It is the kind of stuff that retrospectively gets mythologized, and not necessarily that far in retrospect:
View attachment 25184
This one is complaining that in Sweden the kitchen are to small and the winter to cold....


 

sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,664
San Diego
where has multiculturalism been successful?

China- Orginally 18 different cultures- unified to form the longest lasting nation on earth.
Egypt was made stronger and more powerful thru the union of the cultures of the upper and lower nile.

The USA- the most mulitcultural nation in history- also the most powerful. Literally dubbed the "melting pot".

Britain had an empire as long as it had multicultural connections around the world. And it began when the Angles, Saxons, and Danes, and Welsh stopped thinking of themselves as separate cultures and all agreed to be One basic nation.

Rome started as one small tribe on the Tiber and came to embrace cultures all around the Mediterranean.


y'know- it looks like multiculturalism is pretty much the KEY to success thru all of human history.
 
Aug 2018
581
Southern Indiana
Indians genocided
Blacks enslaved and then made second class citizens
Mexicans ethnically cleansed
Chinese considered untermensch and denied any rights for a long time

a that is just a short list

Protection of multiculturalism ? really ?
He started by saying "In modern times" which you promptly ignored. You also seem unable to differentiate race and culture, numerous European cultures assimilated.
 
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sculptingman

Ad Honorem
Oct 2009
3,664
San Diego
He started by saying "In modern times" which you promptly ignored. You also seem unable to differentiate race and culture, numerous European cultures assimilated.
He excluded the past to forward a petty and transparent agenda of modern fascism.

sorry, i don't pander to that kind of anti-reason.

Cultural purists and racial purists are cut of the same cloth.


Just as inbreeding results in physiological decrepitude, so too does Cultural isolation breed stagnation and decline.
Hybrid vigor works as well with memes as it does with genes.
 
Jul 2019
168
Ghana
China- Orginally 18 different cultures- unified to form the longest lasting nation on earth.
Egypt was made stronger and more powerful thru the union of the cultures of the upper and lower nile.

The USA- the most mulitcultural nation in history- also the most powerful. Literally dubbed the "melting pot".

Britain had an empire as long as it had multicultural connections around the world. And it began when the Angles, Saxons, and Danes, and Welsh stopped thinking of themselves as separate cultures and all agreed to be One basic nation.

Rome started as one small tribe on the Tiber and came to embrace cultures all around the Mediterranean.


y'know- it looks like multiculturalism is pretty much the KEY to success thru all of human history.
You'd think this is common knowledge on a history forum, right?
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,030
He started by saying "In modern times" which you promptly ignored. You also seem unable to differentiate race and culture, numerous European cultures assimilated.
Define "modern times"

"race" is an american concept..... europeans do not use it, just so you know